new coup for you

oh snap, i said it. i dont see how this is different then any of the other attrocities that Africa commits upon itself regularly. Rwanda, before that the Congo...every decade since the beginning of decolonization contained some new unspeakable horror in Africa.

you know what? so did Europe. so did Asia. so did every political nacent place in human history. we can't stop them from doing this to each other.

Volker

Actually, it would be possible to stop it. In Rwanda a relative small number of soldiers stopped it. In Congo it was more difficult, but it seems to work now. In South Sudan it stopped relatively quickly after like more than twenty years of civil war, when supply lines of the rebels have been interrupted in Ethiopian-Eritrean war. If the different parties would be interested enough, the American Union would have enough resources to stop it.

bub

I think we have a part of responsibility. Of course its not Italians or British guys who are training them and saying "kill you each other", but we screwed their continent with the colonisation:

before the Europeans arrived, those were hundreds of small kingdoms. When we arrived, we divised the continent with a ruler, arbitrarily. Many of those former tribes were torn apart, the west part in a "country", the east part on the other side of an unnatural frontier.

In Niger, for example, there is no Nigerian. There are over 250 ethnies.

Each time, we promoted one of those ethnies: for example in Rwanda, Germans then Belgians worked with the Tutsis (which were seen as the aristocracy) while the hutus were considered as primitives.

As a result, when we left in 1960, we had screwed their traditional social system, we had created an inegal system, they were jealous, and killed each others during 30 years, then in 1994 there was the genocide.

Another factor is that they were not used to our political system and our technology. In a few decades we brought our medicine (in the XVth century each European woman had 6 or 7 kids but 2 or 3 died, then progressively, with the slow progresses of medicine, they had also less and less kids. In Africa, we brought all of this in one generation, they still have lots of kids but the mortaliy has decreased a lot so there is surpopulation)

And there are lots of dictators. Africa is extremely rich (diamonds, oil, gold, silver) so the stake of an election is very important. With the corruption, leaders are so rich that they are ready to kill their opponents to stay at the head of the state.

So, my little conclusion: screwed social system, multi-ethnic countries, surpopulation, corruption and dictators lead to war, and perpetual war lead to extreme poverty.


(looks like the Habsbourg Empire: multi-ethnic, with a nation (austria) leading the others, perpetual wars with neighbouring countries, weakness, and then explosion of the system (WWI) )

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Volker

This would be a Nigerien then or a Nigerois.

Yes, this is an interesting thought, Switzerland, which is multi-ethnic, too, had a different approach and much less problems.

new coup for you

i dont think you understand what i meant by not being able to "stop it." Yes you can respond to specific incidences. but there will always be another attrocity in 5-10 years. what you're commiting to is policeing Africa for the rest of its existence. if you're willling to do that why not just colonize it again?

Volker

The mankind developed a bit, colonization is not easily accepted anymore.
This is a good thing.

It is only accepted in parts of population if you have a book telling the grandpa of the grandpa of the grandpa (you get the pattern) of your grandpa lived in the area like 2000 years ago

It is possible to further good governance with money, it is an important criterion for development aid in Germany and probably one of the reasons why an important part of German development aid goes to Namibia.

Things could change to the better with growing Chinese influence in Africa, a development we see now. I see some problems with Chinese products are more competitive than local products and there could be effects to African economies, which are not so good. But generally, I consider it a chance for Africa.

GySgt

And this is exactly why Africa is the mess that it is. Nobody cares. Africa suffers from the strong man. All those dictators and warlords that were left behind in the wake of colonialism or as a result of tribes trying to evolve into the modern age while addressing religious prescription. And for parts of Africa it has been about the spread of Islamic fundamentalsim like in Sudan, Somalia, and Ethiopia.

However, Africa holds some great possibilities as well. Colonialism also has had a favorable affect in some locations. Constitutional writ and a sense of western inspired democracy has been left behind. South Africa, though still moving forward, is the example and model for the rest of Africa. Africans everywhere are investing great energies in search of democratic change. They are voicing iin unity against corruption, despite their many differences in ethnicity within drawn in borders. The African Union is starting to behave as an entity of unity in Africa's best interest.

Another aspect of Africa is that although their ancestors were ripped out of Africa to satisfy the slave industry for so many centuries, it is their descendants they see in the West, especially in America, that are free men and successful. Africa shares a connection to the West. They see black Generals in the greatest military, black mayors, governors, and senators, a Secretaries of State, doctors, proffessors, and global shapers. This is not to imply that Africa is without black doctors and teachers and such, but it is the West where their people are attending the most prestiges universities, have the greatest impact on global happenings, and have the greatest possibilities for success.

Africa holds a lot of dangerous threats if left ignored and it also holds great tactful future possibilities.

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GySgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

new coup for you

aid money, generally, does very little. Africa is not getting better, its getting worse.

All peace keeping does is stop an attrocity which is already underway. if you want to stop attrocities from ever happening that is not an effective measure.

Africa is the abyss that all civilized society stares into- the terrible result of a lack or break down of central order. With perhaps a few exceptions there is no good governance in Africa. in many areas there is no governance at all.

Aid money does not help, and peace keeping does not cause any substantive changes. there is no way to make real change in Africa without actual occupation. and that is not somthing the West is willing to do, so why do we continue to waste our money and endanger our sons?

GySgt

Not true. Africa is transitioning. It would be in our better interest to help it transition in the right direction.

bub

Aid money goes to corrupted leaders who buy mercedes and guns.


And we are responsible for a part of this.

I agree, but sometimes it's also necessary (for short periods, like a genocide for example)

What we have to do is to promote democratic institutions, support non-corrupted leaders etc...