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Archives I really dont care about Darfur; What I challenge is your assertion that your limited interventionism acomplishes anything other then sateing your own moral grief. If ...

 
 
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Old 11-18-07, 04:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: I really dont care about Darfur

What I challenge is your assertion that your limited interventionism acomplishes anything other then sateing your own moral grief. If you want Africa to be better, conquer it and run it your way. If you want Africa to continue as it is while spending trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives on band-aids that make no true substantive changes, then we can continue as we are.
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Old 11-18-07, 05:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
If you want Africa to be better, conquer it and run it your way. If you want Africa to continue as it is while spending trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives on band-aids that make no true substantive changes, then we can continue as we are.
The issue was not about taking on single-handedly the unrealistic responsibility of transforming Africa into an economically-developed region, but the much narrower issue of whether to intervene to stop ongoing genocide. Genocide is:

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Genocide is among the gravest of crimes against humanity, is a far more urgent matter than the issue of promoting broader economic development, and it is of global significance. Broader economic development is most effectively achieved when countries that wish to make the transition undertake major structural reforms so that any assistance can prove beneficial and their business/risk environment can become sufficiently attractive to encourage the inflow of private capital.

On the policy end, foreign aid, trade liberalization, and loans made by such international financial institutions as the IMF and World Bank can facilitate such development. However, in the absence of reforms ranging from property rights to contract law to monetary policy reform to sound fiscal policy, such assistance can have little positive impact. The U.S. should make such assistance available particularly when it serves critical national interests to do so e.g., the loans to South Korea and Mexico during 1990s financial crises were constructive and served the national interest.
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Old 11-18-07, 05:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: I really dont care about Darfur

...and what I'm saying is that if all you do is treat the symptoms sporadically while leaving alone the underlying root of these attrocities, you're doing nothing but masturbating. and you're doing it with Western lives and Western tax dollars.
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Old 11-18-07, 05:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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...and what I'm saying is that if all you do is treat the symptoms sporadically while leaving alone the underlying root of these attrocities, you're doing nothing but masturbating. and you're doing it with Western lives and Western tax dollars.
Although the short-run investment in mitigating the worst excesses of human nature e.g., the special case of genocide, might be somewhat costlier in the short-run vs. choosing to do nothing, the long-run costs of complacency that lead to the erosion of the moral inhibition against genocide and the institutions that safeguard against it, greatly outweigh whatever the initial "savings" might be from opting to do nothing.

What would have happened had the U.S., France, and Britain initially stood firm against Nazi Germany before it began a cascading series of acts of aggression? What would have happened had the U.S. Congress and United Nations acted upon early reports from as far back as 1971 that the Khmer Rouge was carrying out mass executions in Cambodian villages it had captured? What would have happened had the United Nations decided to bolster its forces in Rwanda when the first hints of Hutu genocide against the Tutsis began circulating approximately a month before the Rwandan genocide erupted?

I, for one, would argue that the benefits of investing in early action would have been enormous. Moreover, such early action would have reaffirmed post-World War II precedent that the international community was truly committed to preventing future genocides and such credibility of that commitment might well have served the useful purpose of discouraging future acts of genocide. Needless to say, I recognize that the isolationist/non-interventionist foreign policy schools assume a different position--which is their right--with which I strongly disagree.
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Old 11-18-07, 05:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: I really dont care about Darfur

You're assuming we can make some kind of impact through limited action. Standing up to Germany might have worked because European society isnt fundamentally wretched. Yes, we could have prevented the the Rwandan genocide. But we can't prevent, without a return to Imperialism, the social forces which created it. I am unwilling to have to police Africa forever.
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Old 11-18-07, 06:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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oh snap, i said it. i dont see how this is different then any of the other attrocities that Africa commits upon itself regularly. Rwanda, before that the Congo...every decade since the beginning of decolonization contained some new unspeakable horror in Africa.

you know what? so did Europe. so did Asia. so did every political nacent place in human history. we can't stop them from doing this to each other.
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Old 11-19-07, 01:17 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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I am unwilling to have to police Africa forever.
It seems that you mistakenly equate traditional conflict with untraditional genocide. That is, unless you are proposing that African's have an uncommon disposition to engage in genocidal activity.
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Old 11-19-07, 09:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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you are proposing that African's have an uncommon disposition to engage in genocidal activity.
That is exactly what I, and anyone who isn't completely blinded by PC rhetoric, would inescapably conclude.
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Old 11-19-07, 11:00 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: I really dont care about Darfur

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That is exactly what I, and anyone who isn't completely blinded by PC rhetoric, would inescapably conclude.
Then what explains the reality that more than half of the 20th century's genocides occurred outside Africa i.e., against the Armenians by the Ottoman Empire, Ukranians in the Soviet Union's artificial famine, Jewish people in the Holocaust, Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge, etc.?

Human nature is the same everywhere. That reality is not a claim of politically correct (PC) rhetoric. It is the result of human evolution.
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Old 11-19-07, 11:11 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: I really dont care about Darfur

No, the genocides we care about happened outside of Africa. take a look at Africa since WWII. Far more attrocities then just Rwanda.

Also, all of those genocides you listed ended. Because they had a purpose, even if it was horriyfing. Stalin and Pol Pot needed to purge society to recreate it in their revolutions image, Hitler wanted to destroy what he saw as a threat to the purity of his race, the Turks destroyed a threat to the cohesion of their burgeoning nation. Once Ukraine submitted Stalin stopped. Once Hitler killed all the Jews, he would have stopped. Once Turkey established itself as a functioning Western style nation, it stopped. I will admit that Pol Pot may not have stopped without the Vietnamese invasion.

The Africans massacre each other not because authorities have some great and terrible plan for society, but because they lack society. Society is a tool, and it can be used for great evil, but as Africa shows us, Hobbes was right- without government life is nasty, brutish and short.

I have no confidence that Africa will ever develop the kind of society's which possess the kind of authority to stop what has gone on in the past.
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