Hamas' Stand - Page 3

Volker · 07-13-07, 12:11 PM

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Originally Posted by DivineComedy

Since we cannot forget the many deaths of our troops due to Hamas’ supported “secret apparatus” in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Who cares about your troops in Iraq? These American freaks in Iraq only get what they deserve.

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Originally Posted by DivineComedy

It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear attack launched from any Islamic terrorist against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Islamic State Sponsors of Terrorism on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon all of the Islamic State Sponsors of Terrorism. {definitely including the Palestinian/Hamas Terrorist State}

PS. This is not official US foreign policy, but I wish it was.

A convential or guerilla war is not enough for warmongering Americans anymore, a nuclear war on TV would be something new.

Volker · 07-13-07, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Slainte

That's because Israel isn't like most countries, it's not a nation of people born in the land of Israel, it's a nation for Jews, born all over the place. They want Hamas to acknoweldge that. I don't think that's likely to happen.

It's the insecurity of Israelis about if it is rightful to have a state there. That's why some of them want to hear about this "right to exist". Well, here are news, colonialism was in the past and often it did not work. Israelis should learn from other peoples mistakes.

AcePylut · 07-13-07, 01:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Jenin

They voted for Hamas primarily to end the corrupt rule of fatah. They also voted for Hamas because it was there during all the hell of occupation providing basic services through community service that made unbearable life under occupation just survivable.

With regards to Jihad: Hamas was voted for and expected to continue it's armed risistance to Israeli shelling, bombing and incursions.

Does this leave out space for dialog and conference?

No.

Does this mean Hamas will recognize Israel's "right to exist"?
They have already said that it is a fact on the ground they must deal with.
But they will not recognize Israel's right to exist before they work out a deal with them...i.e. they will not concede to a jewish state before they fulfil the return of expelled natives... Recognizing Israel's right to exist, it is their argument, gives Israel the voice over deciding the fate of the palestinian refugees. They reject that.

Haniyah has repeated said he will "Never recognize the right of Israel to exist".

That's never... not recognize "after working out a deal", not recognize "after a right of return is granted", not "anything else... but never. Never will Hama's recognize Israel. Ever.

That's the current position of Hamas.

Also, they have conceded that they will accept a state in the west bank and gaza if the refugees are returned to their ancestral land.

I think this is the core of the issue.

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The covenant is a document created under the circumstances of it's time. It has no real weight within Gaza and Hamas in practicality.

It has very real weight, until it is legally refuted by Hamas leadership. They have not done this.

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LOL. Compassion?

Yes. Israeli compassion.

If the Israels didn't want any palestinians in the Gaza or West Bank... there wouldn't be any palestinians there.

VTA · 07-13-07, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Volker

It's the insecurity of Israelis about if it is rightful to have a state there. That's why some of them want to hear about this "right to exist". Well, here are news, colonialism was in the past and often it did not work. Israelis should learn from other peoples mistakes.

Nonsense. A steady stream of attack, based on indoctrination gives full validity to the idea that someone believes they have no right to exist.

Who's mistakes should they learn from? The Syrio-Palestinians who booted them off their land in far more gross a manner than the Brits did for the Jews?

As for the initial topic; absolutely, talk is essential and should occur. Not amnesty for murderers, but level-headed talks between people tired of the endless cycle of revenge that's going to produce no winners. No peace for Israeli's, no lemon tree's and homes by the sea for Palestinians.

It's a fanstasy to think that the current tact will produce such things. So, in the absence of that fantasy, it should be realized that a compromise through level-headed, giving and considerate dialogue is the only way for anyone to win.

Volker · 07-13-07, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by VTA

Nonsense. A steady stream of attack, based on indoctrination gives full validity to the idea that someone believes they have no right to exist.

I did not the Israeli insecurity is the only reason, so spare me reamrks like "nonsense".

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Originally Posted by VTA

Who's mistakes should they learn from?

Americans, Britons, Belgians, Dutchies, Frenchies, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Portugese, Spanish, these are former colony owners I know of.

Pick one.

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Originally Posted by VTA

The Syrio-Palestinians who booted them off their land in far more gross a manner than the Brits did for the Jews?

What

VTA · 07-13-07, 02:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Volker

I did not the Israeli insecurity is the only reason, so spare me reamrks like "nonsense".

Americans, Britons, Belgians, Dutchies, Frenchies, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Portugese, Spanish, these are former colony owners I know of.

Pick one.

What

It is nonsense... The Israeli's are, I'm willing to bet, believe that they have every right to exist there and are not at all interested in 'hearing' mouth honor in regard to it. The pressing and true reason for insecurity is the constant violence, which quelled would go a lot farther than some linguistic maneuvering for a perceived advantage.

The countries you listed are successful, free and beautiful. There's alot to be learned from them all. Bad choice of tact.

What can you be confused about? The history of the land of Israel speaks for itself. Do you think the Jews were scattered abroad because they were bored with their own land? Read the history and you'll no longer be confused about the reference to the Syrio-Palestinians.

Volker · 07-13-07, 02:48 PM

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Originally Posted by VTA

It is nonsense...

This is poor style ... again.

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Originally Posted by VTA

The Israeli's are, I'm willing to bet, believe that they have every right to exist there and are not at all interested in 'hearing' mouth honor in regard to it.

Yes, so why do Israeli politicans travel around and want all the other politicians saying it. Or do the other politicians say it because they all think the same. Look, when an Italian minister comes here, they don't say "Italy has a right to exist". When an Israeli politicians comes here, newspapers are like "... and they confirmed Israel's right to exist ...".

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Originally Posted by VTA

The pressing and true reason for insecurity is the constant violence, which quelled would go a lot farther than some linguistic maneuvering for a perceived advantage.

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Originally Posted by VTA

The countries you listed are successful, free and beautiful. There's alot to be learned from them all.

That's what I said, Israelis could learn from them.

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Originally Posted by VTA

Bad choice of tact.

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Originally Posted by VTA

What can you be confused about?

This seems to be lot here.

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Originally Posted by VTA

The history of the land of Israel speaks for itself. Do you think the Jews were scattered abroad because they were bored with their own land?

The emigration of Jewish people from Palestine happened over centuries and there were different reasons. Some Jewish people stayed in Palestine, there has always been a Jewish population there in the last I don't know, 2800 or 3200 years, well, as long as this culture exists.

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Originally Posted by VTA

Read the history and you'll no longer be confused about the reference to the Syrio-Palestinians.

What are Syrio-Palestinians and what did they do

CaptainCourtesy · 07-13-07, 04:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Jenin

Some people might have missed my introduction to the article....

I am not a Hamas spokesperson nor do I completely agree with them. I disagree with many tactics they employ.

The question was (for those who want to discuss the topic), is dialog with Hamas, given their position of power, something worth considering?

I support talking to anyone, as long as it is a dialogue. Hamas has given me no indication that they intend to do that, and the comments by the Hamas spokesmann confirm that.

VTA · 07-14-07, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Volker

Yes, so why do Israeli politicans travel around and want all the other politicians saying it. Or do the other politicians say it because they all think the same. Look, when an Italian minister comes here, they don't say "Italy has a right to exist". When an Israeli politicians comes here, newspapers are like "... and they confirmed Israel's right to exist ...".

Probably because they need help in quelling the constant attacks on their people. Seeking out allies isn't an exclusive strategy.

Italy is a terrible example as no one is constantly bombarding their towns with rockets and suicide attacks, and indoctrinating children with the idea that Italy doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Volker

That's what I said, Israelis could learn from them.

Your implication was that their model was wrong. Considering that these countries are in fact successful, Israel should follow their lead.

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Originally Posted by Volker

The emigration of Jewish people from Palestine happened over centuries and there were different reasons. Some Jewish people stayed in Palestine, there has always been a Jewish population there in the last I don't know, 2800 or 3200 years, well, as long as this culture exists.

What are Syrio-Palestinians and what did they do

This is all the product of rhetorical question broken apart from it's context.
Never the less, Israel, Canaan, Palestine, whatvere you want to call it has changed hands more times than any other plot of dirt on the earth (I think) and the Jews have been exiled from their own land more than any other people ever have from their own.

The Syrio-Palestinians are the descendants of today's Palestinians.

Volker · 07-16-07, 03:43 AM

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Originally Posted by VTA

Probably because they need help in quelling the constant attacks on their people. Seeking out allies isn't an exclusive strategy.

Italy is a terrible example as no one is constantly bombarding their towns with rockets and suicide attacks, and indoctrinating children with the idea that Italy doesn't exist.

Italy has Lega Nord, who question the unity of the country. There are other forces to partition the country or separate parts of it, in some cases maybe they used violence in the past, I heard of attacks to power supply lines in Southern Tyrolean, I don't know, if this true.

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Originally Posted by VTA

Your implication was that their model was wrong. Considering that these countries are in fact successful, Israel should follow their lead.

My implication was, colonialism is wrong. These countries gave up colonialism on the whole.

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Originally Posted by VTA

This is all the product of rhetorical question broken apart from it's context.
Never the less, Israel, Canaan, Palestine, whatvere you want to call it has changed hands more times than any other plot of dirt on the earth (I think) and the Jews have been exiled from their own land more than any other people ever have from their own.

The Syrio-Palestinians are the descendants of today's Palestinians.

I prefer to call them Canaanites.