CaptainCourtesy

1) Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. Any country can refuse to trade with, fund, or have sanctions against anyone they chose. As an organization that supports terrorism, having sanctions is a great political and economic way to 'encourage' Hamas to renounce terrorism. They can chose not to do that, and instead deal with the sanctions.

2) The comments by Mousa Abu Marzook are insulting. Recognizing Israel is not a consideration? It is obtuse to assume that this recognition is about whether or not Israel exists as a country...of course it does. It is about whether or not Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist, whereas one of Hamas' purposes is not to end that existence. The comment is just more political spin from a spokesman of a terrorist organization.

3) Please point out any concessions that Hamas has made towards the Israeli government, showing any effort on their part to participate in the peace process. A key component to all of this is them recognizing Israel's right to exist, and their denouncing violence against terrorism. Neither of those things have occurred.

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Jenin

Some people might have missed my introduction to the article....

I am not a Hamas spokesperson nor do I completely agree with them. I disagree with many tactics they employ.

The question was (for those who want to discuss the topic), is dialog with Hamas, given their position of power, something worth considering?

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Jenin

Israel has not conceded much and maintains an occupation and Hamas has not conceded much and maintains a militant resistance stance....

I understand that negotiation through dialog and recognition of reality is when people compromise.

Is it possible to talk to Hamas given that on the Ground in Gaza, they rule? Is it possible for Hamas to talk to israel, given the reality that on the ground in the west bank and in the air and sea and checkpoints and settlements and border crossings they rule?

My answer is that it is important for both Hamas and Israel to talk. And my understanding is that neither Israel want to end it's occupation and neither Hamas is willing to deny the right of return of Palestinian refugees and therefore recognize jewish decision on that matter.

But I think Hamas and Israel should talk infront of the world.

I think all leaders of the palestinians under occupation and all the Leaders of those occupying them and the Arab world and international community must immediately conduct a comprehensive international conference in front of the world to see and discuss all the issues at hand and end this hyperbolic ingrained Ideological rhetoric.

Would you like to tell me whether you think given the reality of power on the ground whether they should talk to each other?

AcePylut

No.

And neither does Hama's.

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Article 13:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."



This is what the Palestinian people voted for.... no negotiation.... o peace. No dialog.... but violent jihad.

They voted for it, and only the compassion of the Israeli gov't has prevented every man woman and child in the Gaza strip from being butchered. THOSE are the facts.

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Jenin

That is an excellent answer. Straight to the point.

I personally disagree with rejectionist notions...they only aid to continue the occupation.

Also,

What do you make of Mousa Abu Marzook's argument?

AcePylut

I think that without a full renunciation of those parts of the Hama's charter that says "no negotiation", it's just a cover. I can't help but view any "peace" with Israel by Hamas as similar to the so-called Peace of Saladin. It's just an attempt to gain time for Hamas to build up their forces to fight against Israel again.

The analogy that Mousa Abu Marzook uses is to relate Hama's charter with the US Decl of Independence with respect to slavery. The US people 'fixed' that slavery issue and legally codified that fix in writing (specifically, as one of our Amendments to the Constitution), whereas, Hamas has not "fixed" their "no-recognition of Israel" or "no negotiation" clause.

Volker

This is official politics in Germany and it goes so far that German politicians who visit Palestine need a local person to talk with Hamas authorities because of passport things or so because the politicians are not allowed to do so themselves. This is strange.

On the other hand, German politicians can invite Hamas politicians to Germany, sometimes it works, a Hamas minister was here and met with three parliamentarians.

The last time a Hamas minister was invited, was only a few weeks ago, but he was not allowed to come to Germany by German authorities if I got this right.

This is not insulting, this is realistic. The "right to exist" thing is very odd, I only know it from Israel. Does someone ask if Argentina has a right to exist or Sweden or Tanzania? They exist, why ask about a "right to exist". There are countries which are recognized worldwide and there are countries which are recognized by some countries or one other country or by no one.

Did they stop the rocket attacks against Sderot? I have heard there are still Qassam rockets going down in the Negev, some are from the military wing of Hamas, but I did not hear about Sderot since Hamas took over in Gaza.

Jenin

They voted for Hamas primarily to end the corrupt rule of fatah. They also voted for Hamas because it was there during all the hell of occupation providing basic services through community service that made unbearable life under occupation just survivable.

With regards to Jihad: Hamas was voted for and expected to continue it's armed risistance to Israeli shelling, bombing and incursions.

Does this leave out space for dialog and conference?

No.

Does this mean Hamas will recognize Israel's "right to exist"?
They have already said that it is a fact on the ground they must deal with.
But they will not recognize Israel's right to exist before they work out a deal with them...i.e. they will not concede to a jewish state before they fulfil the return of expelled natives... Recognizing Israel's right to exist, it is their argument, gives Israel the voice over deciding the fate of the palestinian refugees. They reject that.

Also, they have conceded that they will accept a state in the west bank and gaza if the refugees are returned to their ancestral land.

I think this is the core of the issue.

The covenant is a document created under the circumstances of it's time. It has no real weight within Gaza and Hamas in practicality.

Hamas, with it's hardline stance, has proven also to be capable of some things...

Maintaining order in Gaza.

Ending corruption.

Overcoming a fatah coup attempt.

LOL. Compassion?

The complete Hamas victory in Gaza was a bloody affair, no doubt. But in the eyes of Gazans, it was necessary to confront head on the Fatah militias and stop the imposition of power in gaza by a party ousted through democratic elections.

It is interesting to inspect what happened once Hamas defeated the Fatah loyalist militias....

Alan Johnston was freed once the captors knew that Hamas was now after them.

Order and security in Gaza was maintained.

Now, today, it is safer to be in Gaza than any time since the intifada. Law and Order, end to corruption, and a unified force to maintain it and confront the Israeli army. This is how gazans see it... The first independent portion of Palestine has been established.

DivineComedy

Ok, I get it, you think since the Palestinian/Hamas Terrorist State has “power” that it is like Cuba and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and the West must have a dialog with them.

Since we cannot forget Hamas’ support for terrorism and what their allies are:

January 9, 2003: “An article titled ‘Iraq Will Triumph, by Allah's Will‘ by Hamas spokesman Dr. Abd Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi, was posted on the Hamas movement's website.[1] In the article, Al-Rantisi called on Iraq to establish a suicide army that would accept all Jihad warriors, so as to halt the impending attack on the country.” Special Dispatch Series - No. 457

Since we cannot forget the many deaths of our troops due to Hamas’ supported “secret apparatus” in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

This is an example of the proper kind of dialog the Palestinian/Hamas Terrorist State should hear:


JFK on the Cuban Missile Crisis

It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear attack launched from any Islamic terrorist against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Islamic State Sponsors of Terrorism on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon all of the Islamic State Sponsors of Terrorism. {definitely including the Palestinian/Hamas Terrorist State}

PS. This is not official US foreign policy, but I wish it was.

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“[59.14] They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls; their fighting between them is severe, you may think them as one body, and their hearts are disunited; that is because they are a people who have no sense.”

Yeah, a wall and a border patrol will protect us. {sound of laughter}

Slainte

I agree somewhat with that this is how Hamas sees the situation, however it's completely impractical!

Israel is never going to allow the refugees of 48 back into Israel proper, it goes completely against what Israel is all about. They have enough problems with Arabs being born in Israel, they're never going to let more come in from outside.

Hamas' basic position is first do have Israel compromise its Jewishness then to go and negotiate as to whether a Jewish state should exist in the Middle East.

That's because Israel isn't like most countries, it's not a nation of people born in the land of Israel, it's a nation for Jews, born all over the place. They want Hamas to acknoweldge that. I don't think that's likely to happen.

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