Tell me how.....

Tashah · 06-25-07, 02:42 PM

On June 6, 2007... the Guardian newspaper of Britain published a Commentary piece authored by Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. Although composed from an Israeli perspective, I think it may be a bit enlightening to broach his thoughts...

Quote:

1967: Israel cannot make peace alone
"We must pursue a comprehensive solution with energy and vision" writes Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert

Wednesday June 6, 2007
The Guardian

Six days, 40 years ago. Looking back to the weeks preceding the war, it may be difficult for you to imagine just how desperate life seemed for Israelis, ringed by peoples whose armies pointed their weapons towards us, whose leaders daily promised the imminent destruction of our state and whose newspapers carried crude cartoons of Jews being kicked off the face of the earth. As we consecrated mass graves in expectation of the worst, we were once again people facing annihilation. We had no alternative but to defend ourselves, no strategic allies to ensure our survival. We stood alone.

Our victory in those six days in June 1967 - swift, complete and totally unexpected - showed us and the world we were not going to be wiped off the map that easily. Israel fought an unwanted war to defend her very existence, and today there are still leaders who call for Israel to be wiped off the map. But there is a danger that that will be forgotten, overtaken by a re-reading of history. Our survival in 1967 is now, in the eyes of the world and, with worrying consequences in the UK, the original sin of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Our opponents argue against the ongoing "occupation" as if it were the Gordian knot of the conflict. If only we were to leave the territories the conflict would end. And they threaten international isolation if we do not.

If only the conflict were so simple; if only the answer were so simple. Over the last 15 years, successive Israeli governments have initiated talks with the Palestinians in every conceivable permutation in an attempt to reach a settlement. In the 1990's, Israel withdrew from all the Palestinian cities in the West Bank, handing its affairs over to a Palestinian Authority. Nearly two years ago, Israel withdrew its troops and civilians from Gaza, with no preconditions. Last year my Kadima party came to power on an agenda promising further withdrawals. In the face of concessions that have threatened our own domestic consensus, the constant refrain has been the Palestinian refusal to end its violent attacks on our citizens.

Palestinian violence is not a response to the capture of the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinian nationalism's roots are not so shallow. From the emergence of the Zionist movement over 100 years ago, Arabs have opposed our claim to independence on our historic homeland, often violently. Our conflict is not territorial, it is national.

The only way we can resolve the conflict is by establishing secure and recognized boundaries for the peoples of the region. It was on that basis we were able to conclude a peace treaty with Egypt, exchanging land for a peace that has endured for nearly 30 years. We did the same with Jordan. It is on the same basis that we will, I hope, be able to resolve our conflict with the Palestinians, with two peoples living in two states. Jerusalem, our eternal capital, can then be a city that represents peace rather than discord, a city for all its residents that does not distinguish between race, religion or class. Those are the principles that I myself implemented as mayor of the city for 10 years.

As a young politician I voted against the return of Sinai and peace with Egypt. I was mistaken. We will not hesitate to take bold initiatives to advance peace, even if they require heavy concessions. The legacies of Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat, of Yitzhak Rabin and King Hussein, stand as an inspiration for all who work for peace.

We need such political maturity from our Palestinian partners now if they are to stop the internecine fighting that is tearing apart their society, exposing our citizens to a daily barrage of deadly rocket-fire and preventing any progress on peace talks. Israel will not tolerate violence against its citizens, and my government will act decisively to protect them. But I also know that we will not resolve the crisis through military means alone. I will continue to meet Mahmoud Abbas, and discuss ways in which the Palestinian Authority can fight against lawlessness and extremism, and urge him to control the violence emanating from Gaza.

In the wider Arab world, there is ever greater recognition that Israel will not disappear from the map. I take the offer of full normalization of relations between Israel and the Arab world seriously; and I am ready to discuss the Arab peace initiative in an open and sincere manner. Working with our Jordanian and Egyptian partners, and hopefully other Arab states, we must pursue a comprehensive peace with energy and vision. I look forward to being able to discuss this with our other neighbors. But the talks must be a discussion, not an ultimatum.

Israel is prepared to make painful concessions to pay the price for a lasting and just peace that will allow the people of the Middle East to live in dignity and security. But as strong and resourceful as Israelis are, we cannot make peace alone.

1967: Israel cannot make peace alone | Guardian daily comment | Guardian Unlimited

Just days after this Commentary was published, Hamas forces staged a violent coup in Gaza and Fatah militia quickly captured the West Bank. For all practical purposes, 'Palestine' no longer exists as a sovereign entity.

And here we are. Olmert plainly stated that Israel was prepared to make painful concessions to arrive at a final and permanent peace settlement. He plainly stated that Israel cannot militarily force a peace, nor can she make peace alone.

And now what? Most of the argumentation here per Israel/Palestine concern what has transpired in the past. However, the past cannot be changed. It is irrevocable. All that remains then is our today and our tomorrows.

And thus the question... how does Israel proceed in the peace process? Now that Palestine is bifurcated, does there still remain a viable way forward? From my perspective, the Hamas coup in Gaza was a direct consequence of informal meetings by Prime Minister Olmert and President Mahmoud Abbas to begin settlement negotiations.

With some notable exceptions, most of you are quite intelligent and innovative. So I put it to you. Forget about yesterday. Concentrate on today. Does there remain a viable way forward and if so, what is it? How would you solve this dilemma? No rants or pedantic tirades please. No half-baked ideas or simple-minded platitudes. Tell me in your own words of a viable pathway which will ultimately result in all issues being settled satisfactorily.

Israel and Egypt and Jordan accomplished it. Can Israel and a partitioned Palestine now do the same? Tell me how.....

CaptainCourtesy · 06-26-07, 02:00 AM

In my opinion, the Fatah-Hamas schism creates an excellent opportunity for peace, not only for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but for the inner Palestinian conflict as well. My idea may be a bit far-fetched, but it would do what I have been saying for a bit: join moderate Palestinians who want peace with Israel, with Israel itself against extremist Palestinians who want nothing but to destroy Israel and anyone who disagrees with them.

I would like to see Israel and Fatah/Palestine join forces militarily, in a coalition effort, and invade Gaza with the intent on arresting and subduing all terrorists/murders who have set up an illegal government, killed members of the Fatah government/citizenry, and reestablish Fatah rule, there. The joint military effort to rid the region of Hamas, a group that only brings conflict to the area, could unify Palestinians and Israelis alike and go a long way towards building trust between the two. Fatah/Palestine would be helping Israel rid the area of a group aimed towards it's destruction; Israel would be helping Fatah/Palestine rid the area of a group that has hurt it politically, economically, and, recently, militarily. There is a similar goal that both groups want. If they work together, they may find that they work together, well.

bhkad · 06-26-07, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tashah

Israel and Egypt and Jordan accomplished it. Can Israel and a partitioned Palestine now do the same? Tell me how.....

I watched a mini-conference hosted by this organization on C-Span the other day. I don't have a good enough understanding or feel for the situation to endorse one recommendation over another one but fwiw here's a link to the event that I watched. Hopefully you'll be able to watch the video on your system. I know that sometimes there are incompatibilities.

bhkad

Quote:

Hamas and the Second Six Day War: Implications, Challenges, and Opportunities
Featuring Robert Satloff
June 18, 2007

* View the video

On June 18, 2007, Robert Satloff, executive director of The Washington Institute, addressed the Institute's special Policy Forum, along with Ghaith al-Omari, Robert Malley, and David Makovsky. The following are Dr. Satloff's remarks as prepared for delivery. Video of all speakers' remarks is available using the video link at right, or by visiting this special event page.

Hamas's victory over Fatah in six days of fighting -- a second Six Day War -- serves as a clarifying moment for the Middle East, a pivotal event that is characterized not only by dark clouds but also by potential silver linings.

Historical Context

Hamas's success caps a forty-year evolution of the Palestinian role in the larger Arab-Israeli conflict. In 1967, Israel's military victories rocked the armies and regimes of neighboring Arab states, energizing the previously marginal Palestinian nationalist movement and, especially, Fatah. That term, "Fatah," is a reverse Arabic acronym for "Harakat Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini," the Palestinian National Liberation Movement.

For all its terrorist activities against Israel and its assassination of other Palestinians who deviated from the party line, Fatah always had -- for Palestinians -- a positive objective: the liberation of Palestine. Before 1967, this could only refer to Israel. Since then, the critical question -- whose answer is still not fully clear -- is whether liberation still applies to Israel or to territories Israel occupied in 1967. Either way, Fatah was always flexible and even indifferent as to the means: diplomacy, terror, or war? Phased, step-by-step, or comprehensive? Secular or Islamic? Democratic, consensual, or fascistic? The means always meant less to Fatah than the goal.

MORE AT LINK

Events

Billo_Really · 06-26-07, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Courtesy:
I would like to see Israel and Fatah/Palestine join forces militarily, in a coalition effort, and invade Gaza with the intent on arresting and subduing all terrorists/murders who have set up an illegal government, killed members of the Fatah government/citizenry, and reestablish Fatah rule, there. The joint military effort to rid the region of Hamas, a group that only brings conflict to the area, could unify Palestinians and Israelis alike and go a long way towards building trust between the two. Fatah/Palestine would be helping Israel rid the area of a group aimed towards it's destruction; Israel would be helping Fatah/Palestine rid the area of a group that has hurt it politically, economically, and, recently, militarily. There is a similar goal that both groups want. If they work together, they may find that they work together, well.

I don't care for Hamas myself. Their not the good guys. They probably do not even have the skills to run a government. As bad as that is, it is worse to rid a country of their democratically elected officials. The people of Palestine voted for these guys and its not our place to tell them who they can, and cannot, elect. However, there is part of me that wishes the fighting would escalate to the point where the UNSC says,

Quote:

"Okay, that's enough! Were going to send some troops in to remove all your war-ing militias [Hamas, Fatah, etc] since your differences is not only becoming a major security threat to your own citizens, but to your neighbors as well".

I also want to mention, Israel has every right to protect its own citizens from external threats. Even though they have their own bomb, they are still under the US nuclear umbrella. Which basically means no one is going to be wiping anyone off the planet for any reason they so deem. Israel is there to stay, and stay they shall.

Unfortunately, the one place they cannot stay, is in the "occupied" areas that were seized during their '67 war. It is not a concession to give up land that wasn't yours to keep.

At this moment, I want to qualify my position towards Israel and Palestine. I do not think Israel is 100% responsible for the conflict (or the problems) in that region. They have definately taken positive steps in the right direction to resolve some of the issues they have with the Palestinians. But they have also taken some negative steps in the wrong direction that is making the situation worse.

According to Amnesty International
(my Monday biased source special)...

Quote:

AI Index: MDE 15/038/2007 (Public)
News Service No: 097 4 June 2007

Embargo Date: 4 June 2007 00:01 GMT

Israel/OPT: Forty years of occupation -- no security without basic rights

On the eve of the 40th anniversary of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Amnesty International today called on the Israeli authorities to end the land-grabbing, blockades and other violations of international law carried out under the occupation. These have resulted in widespread human rights abuses and have also failed to bring security to the Israeli and Palestinian civilian populations.

A 45-page report published today, Enduring Occupation: Palestinian under siege in the West Bank, illustrates the devastating impact of four decades of Israeli military occupation. The report documents the relentless expansion of unlawful settlements on occupied land that deprives the Palestinian population of crucial resources and documents a plethora of measures that confine Palestinians to fragmented enclaves and hinder their access to work, health and education facilities. These measures include a 700km fence/wall, more than 500 checkpoints and blockades, and a complicated system of permits.

"Palestinians living in the West Bank are blocked at every turn. This is not simply an inconvenience -- it can be a matter of life or death. It is unacceptable that women in labour, sick children, or victims of accidents on their way to hospital should be forced to take long detours and face delays which can cost them their lives," said Malcolm Smart, Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme.

In its report, Amnesty International acknowledges Israel’s legitimate security concerns and the government’s obligation to protect the population within its borders, but says this does not justify blatant violations of international law, such as construction of much of the fence/wall inside the West Bank on Palestinian land.

"If the intention was simply to prevent Palestinian suicide bombers from entering Israel, the barrier would be located on the Green Line, the border between Israel and the West Bank," said Malcolm Smart. "Yet, the reality is that most of it is being built on Palestinian land, in defiance of the International Court of Justice, and is separating Palestinian towns and villages in the West Bank."

In addition to the fence/wall, the movement of Palestinians is several constrained by a host of other restrictions, including over 500 checkpoints and blockades, and a network of roads for Israeli settlers to use and off-limits to Palestinians. The barrier, together with these roads and roadblocks, benefit continuously expanding but unlawful Israeli settlements and make them territorially contiguous with Israel.

"Harsh Israeli restrictions have caused the virtual collapse of the Palestinian economy and are exacerbating the increasingly fragile conditions in which Palestinians live and work -- resulting in levels of despair, poverty and food insecurity never before seen in the Occupied Palestinian Territories," said Malcolm Smart.

"Most Palestinians are now relying on aid for subsistence, with families reducing the quality and quantity of the food they consume and selling assets essential for their livelihoods."

If the point of this thread was to solicit opinions on how to make life better in Southern California, I would have a lot to say. For I am an expert on this area. We need to solve our traffic problems, get the Lakers a real center and take more water from Northern California.

But since this thread is asking for ways to move forward in the ME, I'm hesitant to say too much due to my current ignorance of many of the issues that are present in that part of the world. So I will offer AI's suggestions, since they know what their talking about more than I.

Quote:

Amnesty International is calling on the Israeli authorities to:

1. lift the regime of blockades and restrictions on Palestinians in the OPT, which constitute collective punishment, and ensure that restrictions imposed in response to specific security threats only target the individuals concerned -- not entire communities.

2. halt the construction of the fence/wall inside the West Bank, and remove the sections already built there;

3. cease the construction or expansion of Israeli settlements and related infrastructure in the OPT as a first step towards removing Israeli settlements and "outposts";

4. cancel all demolition orders on homes in the OPT, and provide reparation to Palestinians whose homes and properties have already been destroyed.

Amnesty International is calling on the Palestinian authorities to:

5. call on Palestinian armed groups to end immediately attacks on civilians and on the Palestinian Authority (PA) to take effective action to stop and prevent such attacks and bring to justice those responsible.

Unless my UNSC wish comes true, their [Palestinian] leaders need to stop the violence, establish a dialogue between their factions, settle their differences and administer to the needs of their population.

Which now brings me to the my country, the US. We exacerbated the problem with economic sanctions because we didn't like who the majority of their citizens voted for. We are also not helping the situation by putting all the blame on one side or the other. Both are to blame, both are needed to bring peace to that area. Terrorists on both sides need to be behind bars. After they have gone through due process of law, of coarse. People that practice indiscriminate violence against an innocent population have given up their right to be members of society, if a jury of their peers so deem.

I will say, in closing, neither side is going to have their cake and eat it too. Both sides need to have their issues of concern addressed in good faith.

I would like to see a win-win situation that mutually benefits all parties involved. I don't know how to make that happen, but a good start would be
for the “Army of Islam” to release Alan Johnston.

akyron · 06-26-07, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

The people of Palestine voted for these guys and its not our place to tell them who they can, and cannot, elect. .

Meh when the kids vote to have a ton of ice cream and cake for breakfast I reserve the right to veto and inject something a bit healthier.

Sometimes common sense must come into play.

I do not believe hamas has the wherewithal to generate any type of peace merely because of their historical actions and stated goals.

Abbas is seeing much support at this time and seems to be authorized to get involved with peace talks. I see the trouble here as gaza seems to be left out in the cold and hamas supporters may be in real trouble. Hamas has never been able to support them.

With hamas no longer involved in abbas the money started flowing in again to abbas and perhaps if they can keep a lid on corruption and high level terrorist supporters a difference could be made.

U.S. Lifts Embargo Against Palestinian Government

"The EU, which traditionally has been the Palestinian Authority's largest donor, also said it would reinstate aid."

Like Captain Courtesy said. I think the answer may lie in dividing Fatah and Hamas for good by Israel/Fatah cementing a lasting relationship against Hamas. Given Fatahs history though will it revert to type when Hamas is eliminated and go back to the same old rhetoric about getting rid of Israel?

There seem to be 2 squares right now and 3 attempting to stand on them. 1 has to fall. I hope it is hamas. Any other way and there will be major trouble down the line.

"Abbas seeks peace with Israel, whereas Hamas is sworn to the Jewish state's destruction.

"We absolutely have to back" the new government in the West Bank, said Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn. "The question of today is: How can we help the 1.4 million people in Gaza?"

The United States, another major donor to the Palestinians, has said it will end its financial embargo, while Israel has signaled that it too will ease sanctions on the Palestinians. Israel collects some $55 million a month in customs duties on behalf of the Palestinians, but has withheld the funds since Hamas took power."

This is a huge complicated problem and I have no doubt blood will be spilled during the resolution.

Be safe.

Captain America · 06-26-07, 07:25 AM

Well, let's talk about today and the future and get beyond the past.

Today, and the in the future, the Arabs want Isreali's dead. Giving them the land back they think they deserve, will not solve the situation. You could give them Jerusalem and bag o' chips and that would not solve the situation. The situation will not be solved with the Arabs until the Jews are dead.

There is no negotiating with Arabs as they are splintered, illogical, uncompromising, manipulative, barbaric, deceptive, extreme, and have a lack of any conscience. They are from Venus and the all others are from Mars.

There is no negotiating with them unless the Isreali's agree to quit existing. And even if Isreal did walk off the face of the earth, they would just move on to another absurdity. That is their nature. That is their religion. That is their conditioning. They are humans that only know conflict, oppression, violence and war. Unfortunantly, someday we will have to deal with the Arab issue once and for all and it will not be in the form of negotiating.

To me, personally, that day cannot come too soon. I don't think we should postpose the inevitable. We should totally wean ourselves, worldwide, through technology and conserving, from oil (for more reasons than just the Arabs.) Second, we should totally isolate the middle east and let them go pound desert sand up their arse. Third, if they step foot on Isreali soil, or anybody elses soil, they should be dealt with severely. Collectively, they do not deserve to live with civilized society. They need to be isolated if they are allowed to exist on this planet at all. They are just too dangerous a specie to be included in today's society.

If that don't work, wipe them all out. I am not advocating or suggesting genocide. But as a last resort, as a matter of self preservation, it may boil down to either our demise or theirs. In that situation, I strongly recommend it be their demise.

I bet I get a dozen hate responses to this post. I truly regret that. But it is what it is and that's how I feel about it.

You asked. I responded.

There is your future. We need to start preparing for it today.

cherokee · 06-26-07, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tashah

On June 6, 2007... the Guardian newspaper of Britain published a Commentary piece authored by Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. Although composed from an Israeli perspective, I think it may be a bit enlightening to broach his thoughts...

1967: Israel cannot make peace alone | Guardian daily comment | Guardian Unlimited

Just days after this Commentary was published, Hamas forces staged a violent coup in Gaza and Fatah militia quickly captured the West Bank. For all practical purposes, 'Palestine' no longer exists as a sovereign entity.

And here we are. Olmert plainly stated that Israel was prepared to make painful concessions to arrive at a final and permanent peace settlement. He plainly stated that Israel cannot militarily force a peace, nor can she make peace alone.

And now what? Most of the argumentation here per Israel/Palestine concern what has transpired in the past. However, the past cannot be changed. It is irrevocable. All that remains then is our today and our tomorrows.

And thus the question... how does Israel proceed in the peace process? Now that Palestine is bifurcated, does there still remain a viable way forward? From my perspective, the Hamas coup in Gaza was a direct consequence of informal meetings by Prime Minister Olmert and President Mahmoud Abbas to begin settlement negotiations.

With some notable exceptions, most of you are quite intelligent and innovative. So I put it to you. Forget about yesterday. Concentrate on today. Does there remain a viable way forward and if so, what is it? How would you solve this dilemma? No rants or pedantic tirades please. No half-baked ideas or simple-minded platitudes. Tell me in your own words of a viable pathway which will ultimately result in all issues being settled satisfactorily.

Israel and Egypt and Jordan accomplished it. Can Israel and a partitioned Palestine now do the same? Tell me how.....

I dont think it can. (a partitioned Palestine)
As the world comes to the side of Abbas the islamotards have already shown their hand calling Abbas an “Agent of the US and Israel”. I read a poll Sunday and I’ll try to find it that claimed 40% of Gaza residents support the Hamas and its take over of Gaza.
With that being said I see (hopefully) Abbas and Israel working out a peace deal that benefits both of them.

As for Gaza I don’t know. My first ideas involve locking them down but with that people will suffer and die.
I see is Gaza becoming a festering sore that won’t heal. It will be a staging point for an explosion of suicide bombers going into Israel and Palestine.

As I have said before the Islamo-Arab world will not stand by with idle hands as their “Poster child” is stripped away from them so you can expect to see an increase of rockets and suicide bombers coming in from Lebanon.

cherokee · 06-26-07, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain America

Well, let's talk about today and the future and get beyond the past.

Today, and the in the future, the Arabs want Isreali's dead. Giving them the land back they think they deserve, will not solve the situation. You could give them Jerusalem and bag o' chips and that would not solve the situation. The situation will not be solved with the Arabs until the Jews are dead.

There is no negotiating with Arabs as they are splintered, illogical, uncompromising, manipulative, barbaric, deceptive, extreme, and have a lack of any conscience. They are from Venus and the all others are from Mars.

There is no negotiating with them unless the Isreali's agree to quit existing. And even if Isreal did walk off the face of the earth, they would just move on to another absurdity. That is their nature. That is their religion. That is their conditioning. They are humans that only know conflict, oppression, violence and war. Unfortunantly, someday we will have to deal with the Arab issue once and for all and it will not be in the form of negotiating.

To me, personally, that day cannot come too soon. I don't think we should postpose the inevitable. We should totally wean ourselves, worldwide, through technology and conserving, from oil (for more reasons than just the Arabs.) Second, we should totally isolate the middle east and let them go pound desert sand up their arse. Third, if they step foot on Isreali soil, or anybody elses soil, they should be dealt with severely. Collectively, they do not deserve to live with civilized society. They need to be isolated if they are allowed to exist on this planet at all. They are just too dangerous a specie to be included in today's society.

If that don't work, wipe them all out. I am not advocating or suggesting genocide. But as a last resort, as a matter of self preservation, it may boil down to either our demise or theirs. In that situation, I strongly recommend it be their demise.

I bet I get a dozen hate responses to this post.
I truly regret that. But it is what it is and that's how I feel about it.
You asked. I responded.

There is your future. We need to start preparing for it today.

Good post! Many people cant handle the truth.

And you can bet your azz I'll be standing right by your side as many others will be.

Captain America · 06-26-07, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokee

Good post! Many people cant handle the truth.

And you can bet your azz I'll be standing right by your side as many others will be.

Right on Cherokee. You know I got yo' back too brother.

You and me and baby makes three.
[YOUTUBE]xSFexdcCkmc[/YOUTUBE]

Billo_Really · 06-26-07, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain America
Well, let's talk about today and the future and get beyond the past.

Today, and the in the future, the Arabs want Isreali's dead. Giving them the land back they think they deserve, will not solve the situation. You could give them Jerusalem and bag o' chips and that would not solve the situation. The situation will not be solved with the Arabs until the Jews are dead.

There is no negotiating with Arabs as they are splintered, illogical, uncompromising, manipulative, barbaric, deceptive, extreme, and have a lack of any conscience. They are from Venus and the all others are from Mars.

There is no negotiating with them unless the Isreali's agree to quit existing. And even if Isreal did walk off the face of the earth, they would just move on to another absurdity. That is their nature. That is their religion. That is their conditioning. They are humans that only know conflict, oppression, violence and war. Unfortunantly, someday we will have to deal with the Arab issue once and for all and it will not be in the form of negotiating.

To me, personally, that day cannot come too soon. I don't think we should postpose the inevitable. We should totally wean ourselves, worldwide, through technology and conserving, from oil (for more reasons than just the Arabs.) Second, we should totally isolate the middle east and let them go pound desert sand up their arse. Third, if they step foot on Isreali soil, or anybody elses soil, they should be dealt with severely. Collectively, they do not deserve to live with civilized society. They need to be isolated if they are allowed to exist on this planet at all. They are just too dangerous a specie to be included in today's society.

If that don't work, wipe them all out. I am not advocating or suggesting genocide. But as a last resort, as a matter of self preservation, it may boil down to either our demise or theirs. In that situation, I strongly recommend it be their demise.

I bet I get a dozen hate responses to this post.
I truly regret that. But it is what it is and that's how I feel about it.
You asked. I responded.

There is your future. We need to start preparing for it today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherokee
Good post! Many people cant handle the truth.

And you can bet your azz I'll be standing right by your side as many others will be.

You know, Tashah and I are as politically opposite as myself and GySgt. And we go at it pretty good during our debates. But at least I had enough respect for her to make the effort to honor her requests.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tashah:
No rants or pedantic tirades please. No half-baked ideas or simple-minded platitudes. Tell me in your own words of a viable pathway which will ultimately result in all issues being settled satisfactorily.

Sorry to see you two felt differently!