Legislators pro-life until it costs money...

OKgrannie · 06-18-07, 05:47 PM

Legislators don't care about the financial hardship imposed on women by unexpected pregnancy/childbirth, but when it comes to the states' money it's a different story.

Anti-abortion bill is halted | Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Texas Southwest

Quote:

AUSTIN – A stiff anti-abortion bill is probably gone for the legislative session, dragged down partly by a budget analysis that showed outlawing all abortions would cost the state more than $400 million in health care costs over the next three years.

The bill by Rep. Warren Chisum, R-Pampa, would trigger an abortion ban if the U.S. Supreme Court should overturn Roe vs. Wade. Under such circumstances, the measure calls for making abortion in all instances – except to prevent the death of the mother – a felony in Texas.

"It got hung on a bad vote in committee," said Mr. Chisum, adding that the fiscal analysis attached to it didn't help.

The cost from ending abortions in Texas would come from an estimated 63,000 more births, of which 67 percent are likely to be supported by Medicaid, according to projections from the nonpartisan Legislative Budget Board.

Based on current abortion rates of about 78,000 a year, the board estimated that if abortion were illegal, 20 percent of women would go to a state where the procedure was legal. The remainder, based on projections, would carry their pregnancy to term and require medical and social support

Cremaster77 · 06-18-07, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

Legislators don't care about the financial hardship imposed on women by unexpected pregnancy/childbirth, but when it comes to the states' money it's a different story.

Anti-abortion bill is halted | Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Texas Southwest

How can making abortions illegal cost the state more from additional births? Making the abortions illegal doesn't reduce the number of abortions, remember? Where are all these extra births coming from then?

OKgrannie · 06-18-07, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cremaster77

How can making abortions illegal cost the state more from additional births? Making the abortions illegal doesn't reduce the number of abortions, remember? Where are all these extra births coming from then?

Making abortions illegal doesn't change the numbers, but it might change the demographics of the women getting them. Women with money will continue to get safe legal abortions elsewhere, note the article said 20% estimated would travel elsewhere for abortions, I suspect the percentage would be higher. Women without money to travel, or who are unable to take time off from work will either look for illegal abortions or be forced to give birth. If they don't have the money for abortions, they sure don't have the money to rear a child.

Aren't you the least offended that legislators are pro-life only until the financial realities emerge?

Cremaster77 · 06-19-07, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

Making abortions illegal doesn't change the numbers, but it might change the demographics of the women getting them. Women with money will continue to get safe legal abortions elsewhere, note the article said 20% estimated would travel elsewhere for abortions, I suspect the percentage would be higher. Women without money to travel, or who are unable to take time off from work will either look for illegal abortions or be forced to give birth. If they don't have the money for abortions, they sure don't have the money to rear a child.

Aren't you the least offended that legislators are pro-life only until the financial realities emerge?

You're grasping at straws here regarding the number of abortions not changing. The article that you yourself posted shows that making abortions illegal would result in 10's of thousands of additional births. Saying that it's just the demographics that change is a crock. In order for demographics to account for these additional births while actually not preventing abortions, it would mean that there are an equal number of women with money who are currently NOT getting abortions when they abortions are legal who are only deciding to get abortions for which they have to travel out of state once they are illegal. That is the only way that out-of-state abortions would offset the additional births this study showed so that the total number of abortions remains the same. By posting this article, you refuted one of the key points you've been trying to make since you've been posting here.

And I do find it offensive the legislators are so easily pushed off of their pro-life stance. But that's an easy point without need for much discussion. The more important point of this article is that it shows that making abortions illegal prevents abortions. Imagine that.

rivrrat · 06-19-07, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cremaster77

And I do find it offensive the legislators are so easily pushed off of their pro-life stance. But that's an easy point without need for much discussion. The more important point of this article is that it shows that making abortions illegal prevents abortions. Imagine that.

Making abortion illegal prevents women from being able to make safe decisions about their own bodies, and puts additional hardship on the rest of society. Imagine that.

Cremaster77 · 06-19-07, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivrrat

Making abortion illegal prevents women from being able to make safe decisions about their own bodies, and puts additional hardship on the rest of society. Imagine that.

That's a fair argument and one we can have, but it's a completely different topic. OKGrannie and others on this board have repeatedly argued that making abortions illegal would not reduce the number of abortions as everyone who wants an abortion would get one illegally anyway. If that's the case, where are all these extra costs coming from?

talloulou · 06-19-07, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

Legislators don't care about the financial hardship imposed on women by unexpected pregnancy/childbirth, but when it comes to the states' money it's a different story.

You're right. In fact none of the states have programs in place to help poverty stricken mothers and children and none of them have additional programs in place to aid the single mother who while not living in poverty could use some help. None of them, right??

There's nothing worse than liars. They're impossible to debate because they aren't grounded in reality.

OKgrannie · 06-19-07, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cremaster77

You're grasping at straws here regarding the number of abortions not changing. The article that you yourself posted shows that making abortions illegal would result in 10's of thousands of additional births. Saying that it's just the demographics that change is a crock. In order for demographics to account for these additional births while actually not preventing abortions, it would mean that there are an equal number of women with money who are currently NOT getting abortions when they abortions are legal who are only deciding to get abortions for which they have to travel out of state once they are illegal. That is the only way that out-of-state abortions would offset the additional births this study showed so that the total number of abortions remains the same. By posting this article, you refuted one of the key points you've been trying to make since you've been posting here.

And I do find it offensive the legislators are so easily pushed off of their pro-life stance. But that's an easy point without need for much discussion. The more important point of this article is that it shows that making abortions illegal prevents abortions. Imagine that.

May I point out that it is the legislators' estimates of the number of increase in births, and legislators' belief in the outcome of their passing laws is often off the mark. It is commonly known that legislators believe that the mere act of passing a law changes the actions of the populace. Perhaps you are too young to remember when legislators changed speed limits to 55mph in order to save gasoline; I will remind you that very few obeyed the speed limits. Kind of like prohibition of which you might have heard.

One only needs to look at Latin America where abortion is criminal to see what effect criminalizing abortion has on abortion rates.
The Mahablog » Control

nes · 06-23-07, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

May I point out that it is the legislators' estimates of the number of increase in births, and legislators' belief in the outcome of their passing laws is often off the mark. It is commonly known that legislators believe that the mere act of passing a law changes the actions of the populace. Perhaps you are too young to remember when legislators changed speed limits to 55mph in order to save gasoline; I will remind you that very few obeyed the speed limits. Kind of like prohibition of which you might have heard.

Your comparing apples with oranges, people don't obey laws that are punishable by a fine and are rarely enforced, but people do tend to obey laws that carry harsh jail sentences and are commonly investigated by law enforcements.

Ever had someone call 911 because you were going over the speed limit?

OKgrannie · 06-23-07, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nes

Your comparing apples with oranges, people don't obey laws that are punishable by a fine and are rarely enforced, but people do tend to obey laws that carry harsh jail sentences and are commonly investigated by law enforcements.

Ever had someone call 911 because you were going over the speed limit?

So you're suggesting harsh jail sentences for women who have abortions? How many years, and how harsh? What punishment for the person doing the abortion? What punishment for the father?

Actually, people tend to obey laws when they think they might be caught. It's a safe bet that women don't believe they will be caught having abortions. They may use herbs or medicinal abortion. They will go out of the country if they can afford it.

How much more jail space do you think will be needed? How much more manpower to enforce the law? What will be the total cost to enforce the anti-abortion law? Will we have officers to supervise monthly pregnancy tests for all women of childbearing age? How far are you willing to go violating women's civil rights to enforce this ban?

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