Should the US interfere in Darfur?? - Page 2

Red_Dave · 06-06-07, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volker

There was a civil war in South Sudan for many, many, many years and now there is none anymore. After it ended, the Chinese went there with a few thousand troops to secure pipelines. There is a civil war in Darfur now, I have no knowledge about a genocide or Chinese arms supplies to perpertrators.

Amnesty would disagree with you there http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle391986.eceI think the U.N secuity council needs a serious rethink. Hows it supossed to deal with these problems whens its permeanant members are the ones causeing them?

Volker · 06-06-07, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dave

Amnesty would disagree with you there China and Russia 'sell jets and guns to Sudan'-News-World-TimesOnlineI think the U.N secuity council needs a serious rethink. Hows it supossed to deal with these problems whens its permeanant members are the ones causeing them?

Yes, probably Amnesty would disagree. The reports say, they supply the Sudanese government with weapons, so you want to call the Sudanese military the perpertrators of a genocide? I don't see why. If the rebel groups get this weapons after fightings, then I think it is meant as a kind of prey.

China does not supply the rebel groups from what I read.

I am not a friend of how things work with the U.N security council, but I have less problems with China and Russia being veto powers than with the US being a veto power.

The problems are not caused by permanent members of the Security Council in this case, however, they are caused by groups who are operating in Darfur and come from this region.

These ae not only the rebel groups, but the militias, too. Possibly the rebel groups could have had peace. When their supply lines were interrupted during the Ethiopian Eritrean war, South Sudan started to become peacefully. What these rebel groups did was starting a civil war in Darfur, probably they have new supply lines there, just look at the Sudists from Chad, who are ethnically related with them. If France is actually ready to control the borderline between Chad and Sudan, this could change a lot.

cherokee · 06-07-07, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain America

In a perfect world, the collective nations on Earth would unite and do what the useless and good for nothing United Nations SUPPOSED to do and handle crap like this.

But everybody just stands by and waits for the US to take action and once againt put our balls on the chopping block. Sure as hell can't count on any others out there to try to do what's right.

You NAILED that one bro!

Tashah · 06-09-07, 07:11 AM

Human Rights Watch report (2004) on the Sudanese government assistence to the Janjaweed militia.

Quote:

Summary:
Numerous reports from Human Rights Watch and other sources1 have described the “hand-in-glove” manner in which the Government of Sudan and the nomadic ethnic militias known as the Janjaweed have operated together to combat a rebel insurgency in Darfur. Hundreds of eyewitnesses and victims of attacks have testified to the close coordination between government forces and their militia partners in the conflict. Militia leaders and members have been supplied with arms, communications equipment, salaries and uniforms by government officials and have participated in joint ground attacks on civilians with government troops, often with aerial bombing and reconnaissance support from government aircraft.

Full report with citations:
Darfur Documents Confirm Government Policy of Militia Support (Human Rights Watch, 20-7-2004)

Another HRW report (2005) on this subject:

Quote:

Janjaweed Chief Says Sudan Government Backed Attacks
(New York, March 2, 2005) — A top Janjaweed leader says the Sudan government backed and directed militia activities in northern Darfur, according to a videotape released by Human Rights Watch today.

Widely regarded as the top Janjaweed leader in Darfur, Musa Hilal was interviewed over the course of several hours by Human Rights Watch researchers in Khartoum in September 2004. Since then, he has largely stopped giving interviews to the media and other foreign visitors.

Hilal states that the government of Sudan directed all military activities of the militia forces he had recruited. “All of the people in the field are led by top army commanders,” he told Human Rights Watch on videotape. “…These people get their orders from the Western command center, and from Khartoum.”

Full report here:
Darfur: Militia Leader Implicates Khartoum (Human Rights Watch, March 2, 2005)

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways · 06-09-07, 08:47 AM

Better to do battle on the wide plains of Africa against rifle-toting horsemen then get blown to pieces on the streets of Iraq. Haven't more people died in Sudan than Iraq, anyway?

Monk-Eye · 06-09-07, 11:04 AM

"Arab Degeneracy"

Who are the Darfurians? Arab and African Identities, Violence and External Engagement
The character of Arab supremacism is manifest in a racist vocabulary and in sexual violence. The term ‘zurug’ has long been used in the casual racism of Arabs in Darfur, despite—or perhaps because of—the absence of any discernible differences in skin colour. Attributions of female beauty or lack thereof are similarly made, again despite or because of the lack of noticeable difference. The term ‘‘abid’, which has long been used by the riverain elites to refer to all Darfurians, has been adopted by some Arab supremacists to refer to non-Arab Darfurians, despite—or because of—its lack of historical precedent. And widespread rape itself is a means of identity destruction or transformation, particularly salient and invasive for Muslim communities. In the early 1990s Nuba Mountains counterinsurgency campaigns, there is ample documentation that rape was used systematically and deliberately for this purpose.

Gardener · 06-09-07, 12:09 PM

My answer is a succinct "yes".

When people are being persecuted, just sticking one's finger in the air to see which way the wind blows will not alleviate their suffering. If we cannot even agree that they should not suffer, what does that say about our humanity?

In this postmodernist world, people have lost their sense of right and wrong. As the world quibbles, people are dying, and when geopolitcs takes precedence over issues of right and wrong, they will only continue to die.

Red_Dave · 06-10-07, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volker

Yes, probably Amnesty would disagree. The reports say, they supply the Sudanese government with weapons, so you want to call the Sudanese military the perpertrators of a genocide? .

Well they are the perpertrators of the genocide given their colaboration with the Janjaweed. Therefore we,re still left with the problem of how those arming the perpertrators of the genocide [mainly via proxy] are going to solve the problem. We had the same problem with france during the Rwandan genocide, they where arming the perpertrators so the fact they had a permeanant seat on the U.N security council hardly helped matters.

Thus the deliema we,re left with is how to create a viable alternative to the U.N secuirity council in its current form, while still ensureing a degree of multilateralism is practiced in global affairs.

DivineComedy · 06-10-07, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dave

Well they are the perpertrators of the genocide given their colaboration with the Janjaweed.

Thus the deliema we,re left with is how to create a viable alternative to the U.N secuirity council in its current form, while still ensureing a degree of multilateralism is practiced in global affairs.

If you decide to get all brave and stuff to stop a genocide that already happened, remember, that our Burning Bush is warmongering due to “One Iraq, Two Iraq, Three Iraq,” our troops don’t have enough arms and legs to spare.

Heads up, the illegal unjust war for Sudan’s oil will be condemned by the Arab League and the Non-Aligned Movement (China)...

Be honest, have you guys been in a pillow fight?

PS. If you guys give up the veto at the United Nations (of tyrants too), you might as well go find a shotgun right now and blow your own foot off.

Peralin · 06-10-07, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edify_Always_In_All_Ways

Better to do battle on the wide plains of Africa against rifle-toting horsemen then get blown to pieces on the streets of Iraq. Haven't more people died in Sudan than Iraq, anyway?

Good point. I think we should get out of Iraq immediately and send troops to Darfur, which is a much better cause. I don't know how long that war would last but I definitely support the cause. We need to limit ourselves to important wars.