bub

Yesterday I had a conversation with my neighbor.

He is a pure anti-capitalist and does not like Bush so much.

He says the guys in Iraq killing US soldiers are just like our grandfathers in the Resistance, killing German soldiers. Indeed, both fight in their own land against an invader, both are called "terrorists", both use guerilla-tactics, both use to kill collaborators, both are helped from abroad...

He is not wrong. There are many similarities between them. What do you think about this comparison?

__________________
===|:-)

Gardener

When the target is military, the act is an act of guerillawar. When the target is civilian, such as the detonation of bombs in cafes and marketplaces, the act is an act of terrorism.

When the same groups are doing both, it is quite accurate to describe them as terrorist. If they limit themselves to strictly military targets, they are guerillas.

Iriemon

A much more apt comparison of Iraq to WWII than the neocons oft-claimed comparison of the US's fight against the Nazis being comparable to the attack on Iraq, IMO.

Indeed there are more analogies -- both the US and Germany invaded based upon "preemptive" grounds and false pretext, both used torture, both regularly locked folks away in secret dungeous and ignored basic rights based upon various excuses, both set up governments that were supposedly better for the people but had to be maintained by occupational troops.

Pretty shameful and disgraceful, really. Not to say that the US is just as bad as Germany -- nowhere near. Our aims are (apparently) not as odious and we have not embarked on a program of ethnic cleansing.

Still the similarities are there, and a source of shame for those of us who once thought of America as the shining city on the hill.

Hopefully after 2008 she will start the journey back to that position.

__________________
Matthew 5:9

GySgt

Your friend is an idiot and he insults your heritage. These kinds of questions and rationalizarions are so pointless. One man's guerrilla is another man's bandit is another man's freedom fighter is another man's outlaw. One man's terrorist is another man's divine warrior. People can play this game forever.

The guys in Iraq that are killing American "soldiers" are also slaughtering their own people in market places and school yards. I don't recall your grandfathers in their resistance against the Germans seeking out their fellow people and slaughtering them. If you wish to compare the two then you must know something about your grandfathers that I don't. Maybe your friend's grandfather engaged on his civilian population.

And how exactly are the guys in Iraq that are killing American "soldiers" fighting for freedom? Which I will still assume was your grandfathers mission against the Germans. In you and your friend's haste to insult and degrade the effort currently going on in Iraq, you insult your own people's struggle.

But hey, as long as we are using rediculously simple definitions to compare the two....U.S. soldiers have two arms and two legs just like Nazi Germans. Hmmmm....something to think about. We must be wearing swastikas under our cammies.

Back to what position? You are still failing to correctly define what our position has been since 1945. A time when Americans were comfortably stupid while their government maintained quiet support for select dictators, looked the other way in regards to religious terror for our uninterrupted payed for oil, and gave an outright wink to slothful UN corruption. Anything for "stability" no matter the future cost. America will be back on the hill and making us proud then. And when enough people have fooled themselves as they once were, it will be just in time for America to have to react to yet another vicious attack upon our people.

Got news for you. You will never look on America again as you once did, because you are now more aware than you were. The religious corruption in the third world will not go away and the west, America especially because of our lead position, will continue to be the target of their despair and anger (It will be worse for Europeans, because their lands are connected to failing Arab lands). The global demands for oil will persist and we will continue to have to conduct business with the Arabs. This means (as I have stated before) that we are destined to be engaged with the MIddle East for a long time to come.

__________________

GySgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

Iriemon

You are correct that America in the past has not always acted in accordance with the ideals she stands for. Unlike you, I think it is in America's best interest to strive for and stand by the ideals she stands for which made her what Reagan called the shining city on the hill -- not purposely abandon them because of the latest "crisis".

Khayembii Communique

Terrorism need not necessarily target civilians.

This is certainly not true for all of them, and making a blanket statement like that just ignores the real situation in Iraq.

They're fighting against imperialist occupation and oppression.

Sounds like the exact same policy they adhere to now.

"American ideals" are a ruse.

GySgt

And what part of ignoring genocide is a part of these ideals America is supposed to stand for? What part of protecting religious brutality for oil is a part of what America is supposed to stand for? How can we strive for the utopia so many Liberals imagine if we refrain from driving away the tyrants who persist on every prescription that counters it?

What you want is your illusions on what America used to be before this ugly world crept up and bit us in the *** in the wake of the Cold War struggle between two super powers. However, if you profess to look towards an America before WWII, then you are actually referencing something more nobler than what we had to do during the Cold War (for which we are still climbing out of). I too believe that we need to start striving for our past reputaion again, but I also believe in sweating and bleeding to help the rest of the world travel with us. Which means starting to listen to the people instead of the tyrants - and the Sunni insurgency, Sunni and Shi'te terrorists, dictators, fundamental religious leaders, along with the tens to hundreds of millions of Islamic Radicals throughout the region are the tyrants.

Our ideals and values have been occasionally abandoned for decades and every single President has had to do it.

GySgt

Exactly so..in some ways. It is true that America has a set measure of values and ideals that is professed globally. And we hold these very close to us. But it is also true that to protect these ideals and values, some men have to get as dirty as the enemy (This is where people like me come in and I'm proud of that).

When people run around and state that our goal is to spread democracy and freedom they don't realize what such a thing really does for them. Likewise for the idiots that like to pretend that such a thing is none of our business. The ultimate goal achieved by spreading democracy and freedom is capitalism. The American dream is kept alive, because we enjoy our free trades and safe water passages. Our lifestyles are secured because we can rely on the uninterupted supply of imports from all over the world. Our capitalistic ventures prosper, because our corporations enjoy the freedom of conducting business with other democratic nations. And the governments of our allies (who also benefit) understand such a thing, which is why they continue to stay in our good graces and have been encouraging our efforts since we struggled to rid the Mediteranean Sea of Barbary Priates in the early 19th century when all others were willing to continue paying tribute for safe passage.

The fact is that we in the west will continue to prosper as long as all these things are kept secure abroad. In the mean time, the little people complain and squabble over insignificant things, missing the big picture.

The truth is once we get past the silly religious prescriptions and zealot intentions, the vast majority of the Middle East is angry because they do not have a piece of the pie. They can blame their own leadership's decisions for that. The world would be a more peaceful place and far more prosperous if we were dealing with a Middle East that returned the money made by oil to the communities. But they have squandered it.

Khayembii Communique

1. That isn't the reason the US invaded Iraq.
2. There were other means to depose Saddam aside from invading.
3. The US isn't the "arbiter of freedom".

The "American values" professed are nothing more than rhetoric. A cursory study of American history would show that, in fact, Americans (both government officials and average citizens) have gone directly in opposition to those values on countless occasions. These "values" are nothing more than empty rhetoric to incite nationalism and gain support for domestic and foreign policy.

The US isn't spreading democracy or freedom. How can it spread democracy and freedom when those things don't exist in the US itself?

And when they aren't...

Iriemon

What are you talking about? Who said we should ignore genocide?

Who said we should protect religious brutality?

We can strive for utopia in how our government and nation acts.

A nation that stood for the rule of law, respect for individual liberties, and justice.

I thought I acknolwedged that America has not always lived up to her ideals.

Great

And often to our loss.