DivineComedy

Clone19 said: I want to know how to stop the terrorists and have some peace.

In another topic you said, “Islam cannot be anything but a religion of peace, and i have proven this point in many other threads.” http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...tml#post537564 (Religion of peace or a death cult?)

You have proven nothing.

Islam can NOT be a religion of peace, if its believers oppose enforcement of the laws and defend terrorist sponsors by calling them “good people.”

In your first post you said:

“Before you go slandering good people it would be wise to at least hear them out: Ahmadinejad's letter to Americans - CNN.com
that is the link to Ahmadinejad's letter to us. the American people. His letter does not show a person bent on destroying "the West". He basically says he is a friend of the American people, but not a friend of the administration.”
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...tml#post521439

I read the letter, and found it stunk like dog poop, and it gives me a valid reason to question your definition of the words “good” and “peace.“ Here is a quote from another letter that I downloaded and read the day after it was put on an Iraqi website:

“On the basis of what we said about Iraq while confronting aggressions, the world now needs to abort the US aggressive schemes, including its aggression on the Afghan people, which must stop.
Again we say that when someone feels that he is unjustly treated, and no one is repulsing or stopping the injustice inflicted on him, he personally seeks ways and means for lifting that justice. Of course, not everyone is capable of finding the best way for lifting the injustice inflicted on him. People resort to what they think is the best way according to their own ideas, and they are not all capable of reaching out for what is beyond what is available to arrive to the best idea or means.
To find the best way, after having found their way to God and His rights, those who are inflicted by injustice need not to be isolated from their natural milieu, or be ignored deliberately, or as a result of mis-appreciation, by the officials in this milieu. They should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings.” (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

It would be nice to have one honest Muslim on planet earth tell me who the magical “they” are that Saddam said, “should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings.” You know who is all seeing and all knowing. Too many times have I heard a lie from Islam’s natural milieu.

*****

In your second post in response to someone claiming Ahmadinejad “works for the world's foremost terrorist (the ayehtoiletbowl) and is not trustworthy,” you said:

“and a man who lies to an entire nation and unjustly starts a war under a false premise is entirely trustworthy?”
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...tml#post521477

Are you slandering “good people” like George Bush? Are you saying that Iraq was not violating H 32 of UN resolution 687 and claiming that Bush was not complying with the congressional authorization or laws of the land?

“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002)

“I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002)



A cowardly yellow post-it-note on the law and a deliberate act of betrayal may bring about a burning Bush; I know how to soak the snot rag in water under the podium, before it is soaked in alcohol for all to see, so that it is not consumed.

“H32. Requires Iraq to inform the Security Council that it will not commit or support any act of international terrorism or allow any organization directed towards commission of such acts to operate within its territory and to condemn unequivocally and renounce all acts, methods and practices of terrorism;
I
33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);” RESOLUTION 687 (1991) Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting, on 3 April 1991

“March 5, 2003: Bus bombing in Haifa. U.S. citizens killed: Abigail Leitel, 14, who was born in Lebanon, New Hampshire.” American Victims of Mideast Terrorist Attacks

“The suicide bomber was 20 years old, a student of the Hebron Polytechnic University (from which a large number of suicide bombers have emerged) and a member of the Hamas terrorist organization.” PROUD OF MY SON: Mahmoud Hamdan Kwasma, the Haifa bomber (Allah predicted 9/11 1400 years ago)

March 13, 2003: “(CBS) Saddam Hussein has distributed $260,000 to 26 families of Palestinians killed in 29 months of fighting with Israel, including a $10,000 check to the family of a Hamas suicide bomber.

In a packed banquet hall on Wednesday, the families came one-by-one to receive their $10,000 checks. A large banner said: ‘The Arab Baath Party Welcomes the Families of the Martyrs for the Distribution of Blessings of Saddam Hussein.’“ Palestinians Get Saddam Charity Checks, Family Of Suicide Bomber Among Those Given $10,000 By His Charity - CBS News

“Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,” CNN.com - Text of U.N. resolution on Iraq - Nov. 8, 2002

March 17, 2003: “The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030317-7.html

*****

You say, “the Golden Rule is one of the founding principles of Islam,” but where can I find it in writing? Is the Golden Rule in your faith simply passed down by word of mouth? If the Golden Rule is in the Koran, where are the verses?

The Golden Rule should be applied to prevent the need for forgiveness. How do I forgive the civilian clothed terrorist; do I forgive the terrorist by treating every Muslim like I would not want to be treated, and search all Muslim privates for a salami bomb every single time a Muslim leaves their house, or should I let the so-called “Muslim” blow people up? Compassion as an example of the Golden Rule, is nothing but an example of arrogance, if it is applied after conquering that land which you have no intention of returning (or even allowing people to visit peacefully). {Visit Constantinople, and Mecca, and look for the crosses.} What about forgiving Israel? Oh, I know, the Islamic Golden Rule and all that forgiveness only applies when Muslims conquer others?

This is the Golden Rule, and those that believe in G-d have seen to it that it can be found easily, (“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you“):

“Leviticus: 33: And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34: But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”

You said: “As for using violence, i simply won't do that.”

I see what is advocated, as there are obviously verses in the Koran that support war, and Islam has all sorts of specific rules for war, but not against your own. The right of ownership historically is dependant upon a people policing their territory to the satisfaction of their neighbors. We would not be tromping all over the Middle East, like inept policemen in a hostile swamp, if Islam would not call people like Ahmadinejad “good people” and it policed itself.

*****

You said: “A LARGE percentage of Muslims don't really understand the Quran, which is why i suppose the other Muslim's you have asked these questions to have ignore you.”

Prior to September 11, 2001 I asked the Taliban defender about this verse 2.256, and in more than one instance have had it explained that there is no compulsion in religion because when presented with the perfect Koran (as some mathematical perfection) we would accept it, must accept it, or we are a transgressor, like cutting out the inside of the [2.6] to have “Surely those who disbelieve…will not believe.“

Predestination is a very dangerous thing to be faced with, and very useful when a religion is conquering by the sword until all religion is for a particular deity, especially when the other guy is illiterate and doesn‘t understand why the new religion requires him to pray toward some black stone idol. What is your interpretation of the verse 2.256 (“no compulsion in religion“). According to Edward Gibbon (1737-1794) there is predestination in Islam. Is that true, and if so how does it work?

The History of the Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire - Vol 5 - Chapter L Part V

__________________
“[59.14] They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls; their fighting between them is severe, you may think them as one body, and their hearts are disunited; that is because they are a people who have no sense.”

Yeah, a wall and a border patrol will protect us. {sound of laughter}

Monk-Eye

"Drone Wing"
When has anyone ever wanted to think of themselves as bad people?

Bathist customed an affluent emboldened culture.
They were a minority reign?
What is the proper response when real property has relative meaning in dispute?

The arraignment in purveyors of sorrow became endiscriminant arrest of the collective society.

The dividends of property is a first step to peace.



How to induce peace with The Art Of War?


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.




The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

One defends when his strength is inadaquate, he attacks when it is abundant.




Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.




When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.



Have a military of order.

Have an order of law.

Have a law of property.

__________________
Hanged Man
Melpomene

DivineComedy

*****

Sane people do not want to think of themselves as bad people. And I am sure that cannibals think of themselves as good people, and they think your brain is nutritious both physiologically and spiritually, but we just can‘t allow them to barbeque us. If our “good” and “peaceful” neighbor having a picnic in the public park is going to peacefully watch the cannibal eat us, his “peace” can never be our peace.

Civil governments exist to protect the civil rights and property rights of we the people, factions exist to protect the existence of faction, and the tyrant or mini-tyrant of terror exists only to protect his job description against humanity.

This caveman doesn‘t want his crotch searched.

The proper response to any dispute must never destroy the ability to be trusted when the dispute is over; an improper response to any dispute, especially one that removes the ability to be trusted when the dispute is over, is grounds for ruin.

clone19

Good and bad are relative terms. The neighbors duty to defend you while the cannibal tries to eat you depends on the laws of the land on which this event is taking place. Some extreme Muslims find great wrong in men and women showing public displays of affection, but in America, he cannot force 2 adults to not touch each other.

"there is no compulsion in religion" - that basically sums up my argument. There is NO COMPULSION in religion, phyiscal or otherwise. ANY act of violence, or any other kind of 'compulsion' cannot be associated in any way with religion. You cannot force someone to accept Islam. Waging war is allowed by Islam, but it cannot be for any religious reason. Muslims are allowed to wage war only when their is a legitimate threat.

Now Al Qaeda will spin the Quran in a different way. When you come right down to it, everything depends on your interpretation. That's why Islam puts so much emphasis on education. So YOU can decide for yourself. I can only explain something so many times. Everything requires interpretation, and everyones interpretation will be different depending on his or her cultural values. I can only tell you what I, personally, think the Quran means. There are MANY different interpretations, and only God truly knows which ones are correct: he says,

"[3:8] He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are firm and decisive in meaning - they are the basis of the Book - and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking to cause discord and seeking wrong interpretations of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.' - And none take heed except those gifted with understanding -"

The 'THEY' would be oppressed muslims, by my understanding. Ahmadinejad is ALOT better than many leaders of Middle Eastern countries. He has at least attempted to liberalize Iran a little. Saddam was not a good person. The only thing is, the entire middle east is being ruled by peopel like saddam. The saudi royal family, egypt's dictator, the Syrian regime etc etc. And who put those people in power...let's see....

Im saying saddam never had an WMD's, after all that was the main premise that we entered Iraq on.

okay so 'dubya' says Saddam has WMD's. We enter Iraq and find no WMD's. How do you not understand that that is by definition a false premise?

I never said Iraq was a great place to live prior to our invasion, i never said saddam was a jolly old fella. I never said he didn't do bad things.


why do take everything that i say as a verdict from 'Islam'? My personal views do not always coincide with those of the Quran. The Quran did not call Ahmadinejad a 'good person', I DID.

The Golden Rule in Islam is a little different: "Do unto others, as you would like God to do unto you". If you show compassion to others, God will show compassion to you: [24:23] And let not persons of wealth and means among you swear that they will not give aught to the kindred and to the needy and to those who have left their homes in the cause of Allah. Let them forgive and forbear. Do you not desire that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

I am not in support of any war against Israel, or in support of any unjust war. Please do not think that i support the actions of mainstream muslims simply beacause I am a Muslims. I like to think of myself as a different kind of Muslims, a thinking-Muslim. Musilman Sapien.


That verse does not at all justify the global conquest of Islam. In fact it condemns any kind of compulsion to spread religion. The verse after this one says "Surely right has become distinct from wrong."

So basically these two verses are saying, Islam is perfect. If people don't understand it, they simply don't understand. There is nothing else you can do. It is not the duty of a Muslim to forcibly spread Islam. The duty of a Muslim is to simply spread the message - get people to understand what Islam really is. Not by making them convert at Gunpoint.

PoliticalActivist

Clone19 " Assalum Alaykum " I must agree 100% with you about
Americans not understanding our Muslim religion. The time has come
for Muslims in the United States to realize that it is dangerous to be
driven by National, International religious fanaticism.

The time has come for all Muslims to realize that the many movements
in the United States would not be as tolerates as the ones in the Arab
and Islamic countries themselves.

As Muslims we are taught love,peace, and tolerance with a open heart
to all people, regardless to their spiritual beliefs.
Please bare this in mind as you read my post. We all aspire to the same
goal, and that's to worship GOD in a way that satifies us and that
pleases (Allah) GOD.

By looking at it this way provides a basis for ALL people of faith to
find a common cause to achieve peace to work together.
In closing, Politics and Religion don't mix. In a nation that's composed
of people of disparate cultures and religion beliefs, a religious person
takes his religious values into politics, but he keeps his religious
out of politics. Islam isn't a political movement.

Extremists & Fundamentalist is a complete different set of people in
the Muslim culture.

__________________
The Greatest Knowledge is to Admit your Mistakes.

RightOfCenter

Very well put on the bolded part, wow, a post by Political Activist that I can agree with!

__________________
The Jews killed Jesus and then tried to push blame off on the Romans. I blame the blacks.

DivineComedy

That is one of the most conflicting things I have ever heard. It must be a translation error. I am sure we will have lots of those.

*****

“okay so 'dubya' says Saddam has WMD's. We enter Iraq and find no WMD's. How do you not understand that that is by definition a false premise?”

This is important, because Congress could have limited the authorization to only disarming Iraq of WMD:

“I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002)

Since the premise for the war was not limited to disarming Saddam of WMD, but it included the requirement that Iraq stop supporting terrorism in violation of H 32 of the UN resolution 687 cease-fire (which is not to be confused with peace), which was something Saddam’s Baath party regime would not do, therefore, the absence of WMD in Iraq can not make the premise for war false. {period}

*****

You said, “why do take everything that i say as a verdict from 'Islam'? My personal views do not always coincide with those of the Quran. The Quran did not call Ahmadinejad a 'good person', I DID.”

You don’t want anyone to base their impression of Islam upon your personal views. I certainly don’t want people to base their impression of Christianity upon my views or actions either. People naturally base their impressions upon the majority of what they see. Ted Koppel wants me to get the impression that the average Iranian doesn’t really like chanting “Death to America.” {I remember the Iranian officer sweating as the printer rolled off the errors he made on the test, at Electronics School in Memphis Tennessee, and was relieved when I only got a couple of questions wrong. Later on I had to remember my sympathy for that Iranian when I twiddled my thumbs in the barracks while watching Ted Koppel’s new show that started during the 444 days of glory in Iran.} Are Muslims really at peace with tyranny and mini-tyrants of terror fighting in their name and imposing their will upon them? Does that “peace” under tyranny (where Iranians were forbidden from running for Ahmadinejad’s current job) give Muslims peace of mind? You are a “thinking-Muslim,” and I would like to believe that all Muslims would like to think. If the majority of Muslims are not “thinking-Muslims” democracy in the Middle East can’t save us, they will not save themselves, and we are all doomed; without a good impression, I fear that we can’t prevent the mushroom clouds from sprouting in the future when we go MAD:


*****

Men and women at peace showing public displays of affection may offend Socrates, and if Socrates can’t get his preference Socrates can leave and try to find peace elsewhere. On the other hand, Socrates getting eaten by the cannibal gets pooped and he has to wait for judgment day to ask you why you did it to him.

See The Apology of Socrates. During the dark ages, I think I heard that the west lost its copy. Apology of Socrates (by Plato)

Your “peace” cannot be Socrates’ peace, if it is not your duty to defend Socrates from being enslaved against his will and being roasted by a cannibal.

Edited to add: Isn’t the cannibal violating the Golden Rule, and therefore evil? If the cannibal wants to get eaten, he should roast himself first.

“Why did you have to eat those hot peppers, didn‘t you know you were next? Man, when that fat cannibal bent over to put down the toilet seat the next morning my remains wound up on the wall.”

PS. Considering the 19 on 9/11, the name “Clone19” kind of gives me the hebegebees.

clone19

political activist: which highland park are you from? i know of a highland park in New Jersey that i used to live right next to, but im assuming you live outside Chicago, as Chicago has a huge Muslim population. Either way PM me and i can introduce you to some good fellas i know. it's always good to know other Muslims around your area.

clone19

okay. one of the main premises under which we entered Iraq was false.
It doesnt make a difference, he still lied.

the middle east has never been a democracy. members of my family in Pakistan laugh at the kind of 'revolutionary' ideas i give them. people there have no intention of risking the little peace of mind they do have to gain true freedom. Alot of them don't think; rather they mindlessly follow whatever lies spout from the mouth of their beloved Imam, crooked as the man may be.

What the hell do you want me to say? Will you not rest until you hear me scream "Jihad! DEATH TO AMERICA!"?


PS i think you're a racist scoundrel: how the hell are you gonna say that the "19" in my name is some kind of secret reference to 9/11, even after i say i do not support any shape or form of terrorism, or the sponsorship of terrorism at all.. I think Ahmadinejad is a half decent man because he went against the norm and actually tried to straighten up his country. Hate me for that if you want to, i really don't care.

Now what the **** do you want? It seems all you're doing here is pointlessly writing books about some completely random subject. I don't know why you made this thread, but i suspect it's because you want my views about something. Why don't you cut the bull**** and ask me a straight question instead of tiring my eyes?

Monk-Eye

"Incognito"
Exactly, it is lying in wait.
As stated, sharia law cannot be excised from islam.
And there is no provision for renunciation.
Only a liar or a fool would tell you otherwise.
And all this living to please the Wizard of Oz - .

The 19 terrorists of 9-11

Nineteen In Religion