Real Torture.

Squawker · 06-19-05, 11:35 AM

Thought some people here would like to read what real torture is, since they do not seem to know.

Quote:

The men said they told the marines, from Company K, Third Marines, Second Division, that they had been tortured with shocks and flogged with a strip of rubber for more than two weeks, unseen behind the windows of black glass. One of them, Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi Army, said he had been held and tortured there for 22 days.
-snip-
"They kill somebody every day," said Mr. Fathil, whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."
-snip-
Marks from beatings criss-crossed his back, and deep pocks, apparently from electric shock burns, were gouged in his skin.
The shocks, he said, felt "like my soul is being ripped out of my body." But when he would start to scream, and his body would pull up from the shock, they would begin to beat him, he said.

Source

Simon W. Moon · 06-22-05, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squawker

Thought some people here would like to read what real torture is, since they do not seem to know.

Source

Sorry, Charlie.
These horrific acts are no longer considered torture under the new definition since they don't rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function."

Bamboo under the fingernails- no longer torture.
Thumbscrews- no longer torture
Electrical shocks- no longer torture
Red-hot irons- no longer torture
Beatings with strips of rubber- no longer torture

ShamMol · 06-22-05, 03:54 PM

Yeah, torture has so many different levels, this is just an extreme level of it. What happens at these secret prisons, Gitmo, etc. is torture sometimes and all forms of torture should be stopped. Humane treatment for humans.

Pacridge · 06-22-05, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShamMol

Yeah, torture has so many different levels, this is just an extreme level of it. What happens at these secret prisons, Gitmo, etc. is torture sometimes and all forms of torture should be stopped. Humane treatment for humans.

I find it amazing, and a little alarming, that the answer to these reports of abuse are often to point out the treatment and actions of the terrorists. Pointing out the way the terrorists mistreat their victims doesn't justify our mistreatment. One of the many things that makes this country so great is that we rise above injustice, we treat people with respect and fairness. Holding people without legal rep. and without a determinate timetable for sentencing or even a timetable for a hearing goes against what I think are some of the main principles of your society. If these people have been terrorist have hearings and let them try to defend their actions. If they are proved to be terrorist sentence them to long prison terms. If the hearing determines they were not terrorist release them.

ShamMol · 06-22-05, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacridge

I find it amazing, and a little alarming, that the answer to these reports of abuse are often to point out the treatment and actions of the terrorists. Pointing out the way the terrorists mistreat their victims doesn't justify our mistreatment. One of the many things that makes this country so great is that we rise above injustice, we treat people with respect and fairness. Holding people without legal rep. and without a determinate timetable for sentencing or even a timetable for a hearing goes against what I think are some of the main principles of your society. If these people have been terrorist have hearings and let them try to defend their actions. If they are proved to be terrorist sentence them to long prison terms. If the hearing determines they were not terrorist release them.

I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.

Pacridge · 06-22-05, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShamMol

I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.

I sincerely believe that treating them fairly will help us in the long run. By treating them fairly and showing the international community that we're above this and treat people with respect and fairness we'll benefit. We'll benefit because they lose a recruiting argument and we'll gain respect and allies. Plus I think there's been several incident where we've gained info through torture tactics only to find the info was false. The person being tortured only told us stuff he thought we wanted to hear and thought would help end the torture.

ShamMol · 06-22-05, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacridge

I sincerely believe that treating them fairly will help us in the long run. By treating them fairly and showing the international community that we're above this and treat people with respect and fairness we'll benefit. We'll benefit because they lose a recruiting argument and we'll gain respect and allies. Plus I think there's been several incident where we've gained info through torture tactics only to find the info was false. The person being tortured only told us stuff he thought we wanted to hear and thought would help end the torture.

Oh I do too. I actually, however, didn't know about those incidents. I wouldn't find it suprising however to see taht they are true, because when someone is being tortured, usually, they think of only getting the torture to stop and will do many things to insure taht it will stop. I think that if the terrorist mindset that we are all blood-thirsty people was destroyed, then our humane treatment would show them that this in fact was not true.

Arthur Fonzarelli · 06-22-05, 04:55 PM

It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.

Pacridge · 06-22-05, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli

It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.

Of course these things aren't justified.

Is it justifiable for us to use their actions to justify our mistreatment or torture?

vandree · 06-22-05, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli

It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.

I am completely missing your point. Nobody here is justifying the acts of the terrorists.

BTW in Time magazine there was an article that described how they treated detainee 63. They writer made it a point to say that the only time when the detainee gave the interrogators any information was when he was treated best.