CaptainCourtesy

Jenin, what Tashah has stated so well has been communicated in a number of ways, a number of times. The bottom line is that Palestine has refused the two-state solution since 1948. They say that solution is unfair. I would think that it is a better solution then what they have now. Furthermore, it is unrealistic for Palestinians to believe that Israel will loosen any restrictions when Israel's destruction is still something the Palestinian government wants. Why would Israel continue to make consilatory efforts when Palestine makes none and when Israel's efforts are still met with violence and a promise of destruction?

I have said this before, and I'll say it again, until the Hamas government changes the 'destruction of Israel' position, anything that occurs is the Palestinian's responsibility.

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"Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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Jenin

Tashah,

Regarding curfews... and other info...

JENIN–This is a 'street-school' in the West Bank city of Jenin, a school that is set up in the basement of a mosque or neighbourhood home to tutor children who are prohibited from going to class because the city is under curfew. This means 24-hour house arrest, with with the danger of being shot on sight by Israeli soldiers enforcing the order. In 2002, Jenin had 175 days of curfew. Street-schools are a way for children to learn, close to home. This photograph was taken on the sixth consecutive day of curfew in October 2003.

According to the United Nations agency that administers the refugee camps in Gaza, UNRWA, more than 14,666 people have been made homeless by Israeli bulldozers, more than 10% of the camp's population.

QALQILIYA–Reaching eight meters into the air, the enormous Wall around Qalqiliya (pop. 50,000) is protected by a razor wire fence and sniper towers every 300 metres. It has all the trappings of a maximum security prison; a single gate regulates exit and entry into the city, manned by an Israeli guard or locked altogether. By the time the wall is complete, more than 50% of the West Bank will be annexed to Israel, and the Palestinians will live in three (depending on how you count) walled enclaves, disconnected from one another, with movement at the whim of the Israeli army.

HEBRON–An Israeli soldier patrols house to house in the Old City in Hebron (pop. 90,000). 500 Jewish settlers have a colony in the centre of Hebron that is guarded by roughly 700 Israeli soldiers. The entire city is often put under strict curfew (34 schools are closed) to allow the Jewish residents free movement between their fortified settlement and the holy sites.


Lethal curfew | From Occupied Palestine

No Exit: Israel's Curfew Policy

Day to Day: Life in Occupied Palestine | The Dominion

Testimony: Life under curfew | From Occupied Palestine

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"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

Jenin

Yes no citizenship and no statehood. If you claim that there is a palestinian state then define your borders...wait...i get it...its too early to do it you need to finish confiscating more than half of the west bank before you 'unilaterally' make peace..get out of palestine. Take the racist settlers with you, they dont belong on somebody else's land. Quit stealing our land, massacring our people, and demolishing our homes. End the ethnic cleansing and get out...stop the zionist distortion, propaganda and hypocracy and end the 40 year occupation of the west bank, east jerusalem and gaza. Stop choking the people, starving the palestinians will not make them give up rights to the remaining 28% of their homeland.


I dont think he honestly did. If any zionist in this forum would, it would be him however...he does not have to blind himslef to Israeli injustice and has occasionally mentioned his disapproval of the Israeli occupation/settlement/confiscation of the westbank/gaza. Atleast he recognizes the underlying palestinian anger and resentment of occupation and it's effect. He still didnt honetly put himself in that position, in my opinion.

I have posted 4 citations that answer your outlandish and closed eye refute.

That is a racist assertion. And a hypocritical zionist argument. You know well why the Israelis evacuated the Gaza settlements and you know well the consolidation of the ghetto projects and confiscation of the westbank. When hundreds of thousands of europeans immiograte to palestine under imperial british authority, arm themselves to the teeth and then commit massacres and start a systematic way of expelling the natives and taking over their homes and property, then the palestinians will not sit by and watch it happen without resisting.

Please! You kill palestinians at a ratio of 4 to 1, massacre hundreds in weeks and then close your eyes and blame everything on palestinian 'violence' when a desperate father of a dead baby girl who's best friend was killed by israel blows himself up and kills 3. He didnt come out of the blue. 40 year occupation and murder, habibti.

Nine thousand palestinians, mostly civilians have been kidnapped from their homes and jailed. One Israeli Soldier. And you killed 300 people in Gaza to 'find him' and 'punish' those responsible. Whats Israeli soil? Declare your borders...but ofcourse we know Israel wont do that, the havent finished stealing arab land yet or breaking their necks and starving them enough to make them accept.
Hypocracy. How many homes have been systematically destroyed and how many people killed to clear the way for settlement outposts and expansion?


Palestinian Death Toll Triples This Year « Cienfuegos

__________________
"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

Tashah

I do not argue that curfew's are non-existant. They do indeed exist when a security situation requires their imposition. What I object to is the misleading manner in which you phrased your claim. If someone didn't know better, they would assume by your statement that ALL Palestinian territory is under curfew for one-half of the year. Not true.

Off the top of my head, I would say that curfew's are imposed in both Jenin and Qalqiliya more than anywhere else in Palestine. Probably, these two cities account for 80% of all curfew instances. They are 'hot spots' and a significant precentage of attacks on Israel either eminate from these two locations, or they serve to provide post-action sanctuary.

You complain when civilian Palestinians are killed or injured by Israeli forces. You also complain when Israeli forces impose a curfew to minimize civilian casualties. You can't have it both ways Jenin.

Where is your UNRWA citation? What is the time-frame? Whenever you provide purported data, please link to it so readers can verify your figures and discern caveats. Readers should also be aware that UNRWA is by no means an unbiased source. They have worked closely with the Palestinians for decades. As an example, Israel has aerial video footage of UNRWA vehicles being used to transport Qassam rockets.

Don't engage in terrorism and you won't suffer the consequences. It amazes me how you condone Palestinian actions against Israel and yet complain about Israeli counter-actions. Your 50% figure is WAY off the mark...

Map of West Bank settlements and closures as of January 2006, prepared by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

Go on... take a look. The white and yellow areas are Palestinian.

The light purple area (the Jordan Ridge) is under Israeli military control. Why? Because Israeli coastal cities can easily be targeted for rocket attack from these higher elevations. In the absence of a final and comprehensive peace treaty with Palestine, the Jordan Ridge elevation is strategically critical and thus will remain under Israeli military control.

The dark purple areas are current Jewish settlements. The Israeli government plans to reduce the number of settlements to nine by 2009.

The black line is the proposed course of the security fence. This has been changed numerous times by the Israel Supreme Court.

Anyone can plainly see that nowhere near 50% of the West Bank has been annexed. In addition, the West Bank would be contiguous if the security concerns of Israel were addressed and the IDF could withdraw from the elevated Jordan Ridge.

Judaism has holy sites in Hebron (Hebrew - Shechem). Pilgrims and tourists from all over the world visit these sites. I know Hebron and visit there quite often. The IDF protects both Muslim and Jewish holy sites in Hebron/Shechem and guarantees a free and safe passage to all visitors.

Links: frompalestine.org? Jeesh.

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The face of Jacob

A small correction: Hebron is Chevron and there are the tombs of the 3 fathers and also the mothers (Mearat Hamachpela), another holy site is located in Nablus (Shchem) where the tomb of Josef is located.

There's also the Samuel's Tomb in the north of Jerusalem, which was violated

I think that also the tomb of Josef was violated in the Intifada of 2000 when they turned it into a mosque and painted the roof of it in green.

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Zionism started at Genesis 28:13
There's no such thing as "Palestine"
Not surprising, US Judeans prefer UN over Israel
The Seven commandments of the Descendants of Noach

Tashah

Jacob is right. For some reason I was thinking of Nablus (Josef) while writing of Hebron. Both Palestinian cities have major Jewish holy sites.

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bub

Aren't there any Muslim holy sites in Israel?

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The face of Jacob

Who said there aren't?

__________________
Zionism started at Genesis 28:13
There's no such thing as "Palestine"
Not surprising, US Judeans prefer UN over Israel
The Seven commandments of the Descendants of Noach

Tashah

Muslims claim the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem as a holy site. The site is administered by Muslim clerics as is the al-Aqsa Mosque.

I can certainly understand Makkah and Medinah as Muslim holy sites, but Jerusalem? Mohammad never set foot in Jerusalem other than in a dream.

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Jenin

Sweetheart,
You don't have to understand why Palestinians have existed in Palestine for so long, or how you live on land taken from them by force. You dont have to understand that Palestinians believe in all the prophets, and view Jerusalem as a holy city to our belief in all of them. You don't have to understand the ancient history and anthropological links we Palestinians have to this land. We understand the strong efforts made by many to erase our history, lineage, religious reverence and bloodline to this holy land. We hope you understand that we will not let you intimidate us out of Palestine through occupation, and we hope you understand that if the settlements are not removed, Palestinian refugees allowed back home, Jerusalem returned and a sovereign Palestinian state established for the occupied people...then there will come a day when all your force will eventually create the rising masses...after all your nukes are exasperated on us, there will still be more to come for liberation. And a single, unified, bi-national Palestine will be Established...and Arab Christian and jew will live under one Palestine in justice just like the 1400 years that preceded the Zionist conquest. I will always believe that God is greater than Zion.

__________________
"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html