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Thread: Homeschooling

  1. #121
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    Re: Homeschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This post is just evil
    Yes, I know...MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

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    Re: Homeschooling

    Alright...ARE YOU ALL READY? OK...HERE WE GO!!!

    In my glorious, yet exhausting search for research surrounding the issue of socialization in the homeschool vs. non-homeschool debate, just as I was about to impale myself on my favorite samuri sword, I stumbled upon an idea: what if I started a search by typing in the names of the researchers of some of the studies I couldn't access? Might that lead me somewhere? True, not necessarily a novel idea, but one I had overlooked simply because of the futility of accessing the studies at the source site.

    OK, first to start with the reason why finding unbiased or governmental research is so difficult. Homeschool organizations do not want to participate in these kind of studies. As I quoted from the HSDLA website, in a previous post:
    It is HSLDA's firm belief that federal government spending on education is unconstitutional and must be eliminated. While we support the position that the federal government should not be involved in education at any level, we also support measures that incrementally reduce the control of the federal government over education.
    This quote seems to permeate much of the homeschool community, or at least much of the homeschool community that makes their presence known. Some further information around this:

    From the National Center for Education Statistic (Yes, the United States Department of Education!):
    However, measuring the prevalence of home schooling in the United States has proven to be a difficult task. Estimates of the number of children who are home schooled vary by hundreds of thousands of children. In the last decade, there have been several attempts to determine the
    number of children who are home schooled. Some studies have attempted to assess the size of the home-schooled population by identifying and surveying home-schooling families and extrapolating
    from those surveys estimates of the number of children who are schooled at home. Other researchers have collected data from state administrative records to develop estimates. All of these estimates, over time, have ranged from 200,000 children in 1988 (Kohn 1988) to 1.15 million children in 1995 (Ray 1997). However, most of these researchers recognize that their estimates of the number of home-schooled children include unknown sources of error (Kohn 1988; Lines 1991, 1996, 1998; Ray 1997).
    Also from the same source:
    The low household response rate in the NHES allows for the possibility that homeschooling families, who may not wish to be identified
    or involved in government-related research (Kaseman and Kaseman 1991), may have participated at a lower rate than other families.
    There is much more to this source. Here is the link.
    http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2000/2000311.pdf

    Interestingly, there were several other abstract quoted sites on a couple of reserach clearinghouse webpages that also directed one to links that gave similar information. However, as these clearinghouses were homeschool sponsored, many of these links didn't work. Far be it, however, for a tenacious researcher as myself, to give up so easily. Further explorations located this absolutely wonderful article writen by two very strong proponents of homeschooling.
    Home Education Magazine: One of the oldest and most informative homeschooling magazines.

    There are so many quotes that I could take from this article, that I could use several posts to do it. In brief, the Kasemans' position is similar to the
    HSDLA's. They seem completely suspicious of govenmental research and express concerns about how it will lead to regulation of homeschooling, making it comprable to conventional schooling. The Kasemans', in another article, go on to criticize an important HSDLA study, supporting homeschooling, as being invalid.

    The HSDLA endorsed study is here:
    EPAA Vol. 7 No. 8 Rudner: Home School Students, 1998

    The Kasemans' response is here:
    HSLDA STUDY ON HOMESCHOOLING

    Here, the Kasemans do a great job of showing flaws in the HSDLA study, by demostrating an umrepresentative population, administration problems with accepting and including responses (only 48% of responses were actually counted), and other problems with the report as a whole.

    There seems to be a general agenda though: keep government out of homeschooling, and by preventing research, this goal is more easily attained.

    One more point around research validity in homeschool studies. Most 'in house' research seems to be sponsored by Christian groups, as these organizations dominated the homeschool community. The HSLDA is Christian based, as is NHERI and NCHE. These (and the people associated with them) are the big players in homeschooling. The following aritcle does a good job outlining this and, again, indicating the general invalidity of research and the position the homeschool research is not helpful, in general.
    PJE_Article response

    To me, what this all shows is the difficulty of finding any valid research on the topic. And, when you check the links I have cited, so far, all except for the US government link are homeschooled or homeschooled sponsored websites, adding, hopefully, to the credibility of my research.

    Continued...
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

  3. #123
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    Re: Homeschooling

    Continued...

    So what does this all mean to the issue we have been discussing and trying to find valid information on? Is there any valid information? Will I now post this information? Is Jerry sitting on the edge of his seat?

    Well...there seems to be no seminal, highly respected studies on this topic. There are many smaller ones, though each has problems, mostly with sample size, population bias, or poor testing proceedures. In brief, the conclusion I reach by looking at most of these studies, is that, overall, there doesn't seem to be any major difference in the socialization ability of homeschoolers vs. non-homeschoolers. I know, disappointing, especially with the difficulty of proving validity of many of these studies.

    But wait. Since we've all had so much fun with this thread, thus far, how about we do this: I like Jerry's suggestion. Let's take a look at these studies and debate both the pros and cons of their findings along with the potential validity of the studies. Could be amusing...or something like that.

    Here are some of the research clearinghouse links I found. There are some pro-homeschool studies, many 'no difference' studies, and a few pro-non-homeschool studies. Most of the links I have cited in my previous post, eminated from one of these links. OK, here they are:

    Homeschooling Research Bibliography - Bibliography of scholarly research on home schooling
    AHA Homeschooling Information
    A to Z Home's Cool (Homeschool) - Homeschooling Information
    Homeschooling Research

    Lots of material here, folks. Let's see what happens as they are explored.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

  4. #124
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    Re: Homeschooling

    Captain did you read this one at all?

    Research on Homeschooling Socialization (Learn in Freedom!)

    Especially noteworthy is this part:

    The same year that Shyers completed his doctoral degree thesis research on homeschooling socialization, Thomas Smedley completed master's degree research at Radford University in Virginia, with a similar experimental design. Smedley compared twenty home-schooled children to thirteen public school children, matching the children as best he could by relevant demographic characteristics. His study used the Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales, which evaluate communication skills, socialization, and daily living skills. Smedley found that the home-schooled children were more mature according to the scoring rubrics of the Vineland scales, scoring in the 84th percentile, while the public school children scored in the 27th percentile. Thus the Shyers finding supports a nearly simultaneous finding by a different researcher, who used a different social science evaluation procedure on a different sample population. Such a replicated finding is unusual in social science.
    Because the website is Christian, you may have rejected this as biased at the outset. However, this IS exactly the information you are looking for. I've spent two days trying to locate the dissertation (I think I found it at the University of Flordia library) so I could bring that to the table, and then realized I was looking for the work of Shyers instead of Smedley...

    Anywhoo...the Vineland is a test I am well familiar with. It is administered by parent interview/direct observation and looks at four areas of development: fine/gross motor, language, social, and self-help. Questions include: "Does the child respond to his name...tie his shoes...ride a bike...make eye contact...speak four word sentences..." and the responses are "Always, Frequently, Often, Rarely, Never." It is a tool used to screen for developmental disabilities such as autism. My son has taken it four times.

    It is unlikely that results could be skewed to read "more sociable" or "less sociable" (believe me...I've tried). Especially with more than one person administering the tests and contributing to the answers. The focus of the test is social skills and seeing how they've developed in comparison to other areas of development...so this is exactly the kind of test results we've been seeking. Regardless of the religious affliation of the website owner or Thomas Smedley, the results are unbiased and I propose these results be accepted as valid.

    I just did a search for Radford University

    About RU

    It's a public college, rated in the top 25 Master's Programs in the South by U.S.News and World Report. IF Mr. Smedley is a Christian, I suspect it would have no bearing at RU. Again, validates the findings (IMO).

    I just found this article which appears to be written by our Mr. Smedley...he appears to be an angry Libertarian, but "God" did not appear once in his article.

    The Libertarian Home Schooler, Thomas C. Smedley

    Socialization

    The primary advantage of socialist education, we are told, is socialization. The ability to sniff the behinds of those around you, and ascertain your position in the pack, your place in the pecking order. In adult prisons, rapists help to put and keep "fresh meat" in its place. In kiddy penal institutions, bullies serve the same purpose. Several studies, including my own MS thesis, have measured the social maturity of home educated children. This characteristic is normally far higher in kids who were raised in their families, than in those who were surrendered to The Lord of the Flies. It's easy to pick out the home schooled kids at family reunions. They're the ones who can organize the younger cousins into games, or comfortably discuss politics with the sober aunts and uncles.
    What a riot!

    So, I make a motion these (impartial) results be accepted. :smile:
    Rev.

    God doesn't send anyone to hell. We go to hell over His dead body.

  5. #125
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    Re: Homeschooling

    Like everything, not everything is good for everybody.

    Some kids will excel at homeschooling, but that is not because public school teachers are bad, it is because of other factors. Some kids need quiet settings, some kids get more parent support, but if a kid tries in public school and have parental support, they can and will do great. Public school teachers are mandated to be very qualified now. They go through almost as many years of study as lawyers many times. A teacher that has a Masters might have gone to school for up to 8 years of college.

    Homeschooling in general, I have noticed, is full of introverts and psuedo-wierdos.

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    Re: Homeschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Utah View Post
    Like everything, not everything is good for everybody.

    Some kids will excel at homeschooling, but that is not because public school teachers are bad, it is because of other factors. Some kids need quiet settings, some kids get more parent support, but if a kid tries in public school and have parental support, they can and will do great. Public school teachers are mandated to be very qualified now. They go through almost as many years of study as lawyers many times. A teacher that has a Masters might have gone to school for up to 8 years of college.

    Homeschooling in general, I have noticed, is full of introverts and psuedo-wierdos.
    I agree.
    Different strokes for different folks.

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    Re: Homeschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I didn't say that you said that is was a fact, I said that you say it as though it were fact.
    What gave it away, the fact that I qualified all my points with 'think'

    I don't know where these magical schools exist that has all these diverse backgrounds....Hogwarts perhaps?.....but my experience is that schools are assigned by residential district, thus all the children attending are from the same general aria. This means that the diversity of the children a home schooler would interact with is no different than what/who a non-home schooler would interact with.
    1) In many places such as NYC, children attend schools nowhere near their homes, with students from all over the city.

    2) Even outside the city, in any public school, you're interacting with hundreds of different kids, 6 hours a day. How many do you interact with while being homeschooled?

    Indeed. I see a greater value on my children than my income.
    An interesting way to phrase it.

    No, that's moral relativism.
    That common measure you spoke of earlier regarding education....the same concept is present in morality as well.

    According to my tools, which we all have, your decision is neither square, level, plum nor the correct dimension.
    And that's great, best of luck with your tools. I have my own, and they serve me quite well.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Homeschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. View Post
    It's great that you have that choice. But somehow you miss the point that not everyone does or can live in an area where there are "high quality public schools that offer advanced curricula..." If all American had equal access to a "high quality public education" why then do we have "No Child Left Behind" and citizen initiatives for vouchers (which, by the way, the government opposes. So much for the idea that the government education links provided earlier are "unbiased." The governement has proven itself to be VERY biased when it comes to education.)

    One reason homeschoolers like myself homeschool is because they want their children to get a "high quality education" and they are more likely to get that at home.
    And that's completely true. If I lived in an area with seriously sub-par public schools, I might consider private schooling. I think it would take a lot more to get me to consider homeschooling.


    Granted. The ability to interact appropriately with others is a crucial skill. But I contest that public school is the best place to learn those skills.

    Public school, unless it is part of an IEP, does not provide direct instruction in "social skills" beyond Kindergarten. The whole purpose of Kindergarten is to teach children how to behave in school...sit quietly while teacher talks, don't run in the hall, line up to go to library, line up to go to music, line up to go to the bus, ask permission to use the bathroom. Nowhere since I have graduated from highschool have I had to use any of these "skills." This was socialization specifically to the public school environment. Can a person be successful in life without ever having had to line up for the bus? Yes.
    But people wait in line every day, at the supermarket, the bank, etc. Its a natural act.

    But the "social skills" you all are so hot on...handling social interaction...are not directly taught in school anyway. "When somebody waves a greeting at you, it is socially proper to wave back." My kids must attend public school to learn that? "Use a fork to eat your green beans, but it's okay to use your fingers to eat the chicken nuggets." Which class must my child take to receive this instruction? And what if my child insists on eating his nuggets with a fork and his greenbeans with his fingers? Will someone correct him? If so, who...the cafeteria moniter who is refereeing a disgreement acroos the room?
    Did I say they only get taught at school? No. I'd tell my kid that at dinner.


    To say that "there is no better place to learn how to deal with bullies, become confident in yourself, interact with members of the opposite (or same, however you roll) sex, and deal with both fair and unfair grading systems" assumes several things:

    1. "Becom[ing] confident in yourself" is a social skill. It's not...it's an emotional skill and follows a series of successful experiences. Not everyone can be successful in public school, and if you've read anything at all about learning theories (The Way They Learn by Cynthia Tobias; One Mind at a Time by Dr. Mel Levine; Better Late Than Early by Dr. Raymond Moore) it is clear that only a very small percentage of the population can be successful in Public School. So if self-confidence is based on success, and only a small portion of the population experiences success in school, then it seems that public school is the least likely environment for a child to develop self-confidence.
    Where do you get support for this fallacious claim?
    2. Public School is a naturally occuring environment. It's not. At no other time or place in life do you interact with 30 people your exact age for six hours a day. At home, at work, at the beach, at the grocery store...you must interact with people of all ages, experiences, socio-economic backgrounds etc. Not so in school. The demographics of a school are determined very much by location, and often by the tax base that support it. A child in public school will interact with children his exact age, developmental level, and similar life experience. There is limited contact with older and younger students, so the opportunities for watching how older students behave and being the model for younger students is lost.
    Who said they're only your age? I had classes with people a couple years older, music/art with people 2 or 3 years older/younger, played sports with people 2/3 years younger, rode on the bus and played on the playground with people 4/5 years younger, etc.

    3. Public Schools provide instruction for negotiating social situations that is unavailable anywhere else. Except for the recent interest in social instruction regarding harrassment, this is untrue. How does the school teach about boy/girl interaction? Is there someone standing by teaching a young man how to properly ask a girl out on a date (other than his geeky friends who prove nine times out of ten to be no help at all). Is there someone to guide the girl on how to properly turn down the young man when she is not interested (other than her air-head friends who prove nine times out of ten to be no help at all). Who will debrief them when the whole social situation goes bad?
    And they learn that in homeschooling? I know that I learned a hell of a lot more about whether a girl was cute or liked me on the playground from actually interacting with them and discussing it with my friends than I would have from asking my mom.
    In the past, the school's attempt to teach children proper social responses (Just Say No, D.A.R.E.) have proven largely unsuccessful. Kids still use drugs/start smoking/drink and drive/have unprotected sex.
    File this under "duh"

    You wanted statstics about how successfully socialized public school kids are compared to homeschool kids? That's where you'll find them...if socialization is the learning of the acceptable behaviors of a society, find out how many kids use drugs public school vs. homeschool. How many unplanned teen pregnancies are there public school vs. homeschool. How many kids get expelled from college public school vs. homeschool. How many kids end up in jail public school vs. homeschool. I don't have the statistics, but I'd wager that generally speaking, homeschool kids ARE successfully socialized because they understand the rules of society and obey them.
    You're self selecting. The kind of parent who homeschools their child is likely to be significantly more wealthy than the average public school child, and is also (this part is from my own experience, not citing it as a fact) much more likely to be more controlling as to what the child does. Of course they're going to do less of those things.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Homeschooling

    It seems to me that we reached an unproductive impasse some posts back, and now we're just going around in circles.
    What if, instead of debating "public and/or private school education versus homeschool education", we discussed "Homeschool: pros and cons" (we could also discuss "Public and/or private school education: pros and cons", if y'all want).
    Because there are, of course, pros and cons to everything in life.
    I think it would be interesting to hear one of the homeschool parents' perspective on what the "cons" of homeschooling are (we've already heard what they consider to be the "pros", although they can feel free to reiterate these once again, if they want to), what difficulties they've encountered, what concerns (if any) they have about it, etc.
    Then those of us who have children in public and/or private school (or who attended or still attend public or private school ourselves) can talk about what we consider to be the pros and cons of public and/or private school education.
    Does that sound like a good idea?
    You see, instead of putting each other on the defensive (which results in nothing more but blind, blanket, partisan proclamations of superiority, as well as some general snarkiness on both sides, ie, "Home schooling is child abuse"... "I guess you value money more than you value your children"... etc), this way we can honestly critique the systems we know best, whether that's homeschooling or public schooling or whatever. And maybe we can all learn something about the pros and cons of different types of education.
    Since there appear to be no unbiased statistics or empirical data on the issue (I've looked and looked, trust me) this is probably the only way we will learn anything.

  10. #130
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    Re: Homeschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. View Post
    Yup, I read this one a couple of times.

    Because the website is Christian, you may have rejected this as biased at the outset. However, this IS exactly the information you are looking for. I've spent two days trying to locate the dissertation (I think I found it at the University of Flordia library) so I could bring that to the table, and then realized I was looking for the work of Shyers instead of Smedley...

    Anywhoo...the Vineland is a test I am well familiar with. It is administered by parent interview/direct observation and looks at four areas of development: fine/gross motor, language, social, and self-help. Questions include: "Does the child respond to his name...tie his shoes...ride a bike...make eye contact...speak four word sentences..." and the responses are "Always, Frequently, Often, Rarely, Never." It is a tool used to screen for developmental disabilities such as autism. My son has taken it four times.

    It is unlikely that results could be skewed to read "more sociable" or "less sociable" (believe me...I've tried). Especially with more than one person administering the tests and contributing to the answers. The focus of the test is social skills and seeing how they've developed in comparison to other areas of development...so this is exactly the kind of test results we've been seeking. Regardless of the religious affliation of the website owner or Thomas Smedley, the results are unbiased and I propose these results be accepted as valid.

    I just did a search for Radford University

    About RU

    It's a public college, rated in the top 25 Master's Programs in the South by U.S.News and World Report. IF Mr. Smedley is a Christian, I suspect it would have no bearing at RU. Again, validates the findings (IMO).

    I just found this article which appears to be written by our Mr. Smedley...he appears to be an angry Libertarian, but "God" did not appear once in his article.

    The Libertarian Home Schooler, Thomas C. Smedley



    What a riot!

    So, I make a motion these (impartial) results be accepted. :smile:
    Sorry, as I said I had read this several times, and rejected it as valid research (the Smedley study) for a variety of reasons.

    1. Too small sample size (20 and 13 is tiny)

    2. Agenda: Smedley, based on the article you linked (one I had seen before, also) seems like a rabid homeschool proponent. One should question his imparitality in research.

    3. Non-representative population: the homeschoolers chosen for his study, were 'religious homeschoolers' (NHEN Thoughts on Protecting Children in Homeschooling Families - Homeschooling Information from the National Home Education Network endnote #9). This is good example of the bias I have been finding and showing.

    So, sorry. based on these confounds, this study cannot be accepted as impartial.

    Also, though the Smedley study doesn't, the Shyer study utilizes a research tool that many pro-homeschooled studies use and on which both you and I have rejected as being not a good sole determinant for positive socialization: self-concept.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

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