What Economic System?

Comrade Brian · 05-14-05, 04:53 AM

I just wanted to know what economic system people support.

I support the Communist system(hey, no government to oppress you).

Gandhi>Bush · 05-14-05, 08:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Comrade Brian

I support the Communist system(hey, no government to oppress you).

Ohh... I haven't laughed that hard in quite some time.

Blackflagx · 05-14-05, 10:54 AM

Well, I also favor a communist system but I shall go into more detail than comrade Brian. Now when I say communist, I do not mean Stalin's USSR. By communism I mean a communal system of production and consumption based on need and directly democratic workers collectives. These workers collectives would be from the bottom up controled directly by the workers by means of direct democracy. Private enterprize would be abolished and the means of production would be owned by the whole of society. The workers collectives would have ties with other collectives for materials needed to make a product, of course. However, these collectives would cooperate rather than compete, eliminating the market. Federations of these collectives would exist to cover larger areas of exchange and make sure the system runs smoothly. The collectives would produce according to need, and people can freely use the goods and services of society without the means of currency. There would be no government in this at all, and the collectives would freely cooperate to meet the needs of the people.

Before this however, there would be socialism. Under socialism, private enterprize would be illegal and all property would be put into the hands of the directly democratic workers state. There would be a state bank and goods would go according to the work done, or how beneficial it is to society. A worker would get paid far more than a manager. This directly democratic state would exist to wipe out the mass consumerism of capitalism and prepare the world for communism. Once social classes and mass consumerism disapeer so will the state by means of it withering away. When the social classes and the state disapeer, we will have communism as outlined above. That is my view of economics and I would like to hear yours. Id love to start a debate of capitalism and communism/socialism.

shuamort · 05-14-05, 11:21 AM

Pure capitalism.

Blackflagx · 05-14-05, 11:37 AM

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Pure capitalism.

I respect your opinion, but I dont see how you can support such a top-down hierarchial, exploitative system. When someone purchases a factory he now has control of it. He appoints his workers, managers, etc. This in itself is the antithesis of democracy. Let us continue. The goal of the capitalist is to make a profit. Profit= production-expenses. So, the goal of the capitalist is to make the workers work as hard as possible (increase production), and pay them as little as possible (decrease expenses). Also, the workers are not paid nearly the value of their labor. This is exploitation. The workers have no say in the running of this factory and all power is delegated from above. Capitalism is the opposite of democracy! Is it fair that the boss gets so much more money that the workers? Is it fair that 10% of the population controls 85% of the wealth? Is it fair that a business man who sits in a comfortable office all day makes ten times more than a contruction worker who builds everything we take for granted and risks his life everyday? NO!

You probably say that it is voluntary. Well, technically it is voluntary if i give a robber my money when he has a gun to my head. Capitalism works the same way. The workers must work, or else they will starve or live on the street. They are coerced into working. So they have to struggle to find a master to slave to just so they can eat and support their family. They work hard for you everyday and what do you give them in return? A tiny slice of the wealth they produce? They deserve it all! Capitalism is the most unjust economic system ever, responsible for exploitation, oppression, poverty, crime, starvation, war, sweatshops, the destruction of the environment, and it is the antithesis of democracy. I cannot support such a system.

shuamort · 05-14-05, 11:51 AM

Democracy has nothing to do with capitalism or communism or socialism or any other form of pecuniary system. A form of government be it a democracy, a constitutional republic (which the US is), a theocracy, a dictatorship, or any other kind is no way tied to it's financial state.

Gandhi>Bush · 05-14-05, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflagx

I respect your opinion, but I dont see how you can support such a top-down hierarchial, exploitative system. When someone purchases a factory he now has control of it. He appoints his workers, managers, etc. This in itself is the antithesis of democracy. Let us continue. The goal of the capitalist is to make a profit. Profit= production-expenses. So, the goal of the capitalist is to make the workers work as hard as possible (increase production), and pay them as little as possible (decrease expenses). Also, the workers are not paid nearly the value of their labor. This is exploitation. The workers have no say in the running of this factory and all power is delegated from above. Capitalism is the opposite of democracy! Is it fair that the boss gets so much more money that the workers? Is it fair that 10% of the population controls 85% of the wealth? Is it fair that a business man who sits in a comfortable office all day makes ten times more than a contruction worker who builds everything we take for granted and risks his life everyday? NO!

You probably say that it is voluntary. Well, technically it is voluntary if i give a robber my money when he has a gun to my head. Capitalism works the same way. The workers must work, or else they will starve or live on the street. They are coerced into working. So they have to struggle to find a master to slave to just so they can eat and support their family. They work hard for you everyday and what do you give them in return? A tiny slice of the wealth they produce? They deserve it all! Capitalism is the most unjust economic system ever, responsible for exploitation, oppression, poverty, crime, starvation, war, sweatshops, the destruction of the environment, and it is the antithesis of democracy. I cannot support such a system.

What do the workers do under communism? What is your perspective on that?

Decreasing expenses and increasing production are not factors of capitalism but factors of economics.

V.I. Lenin · 05-16-05, 07:52 PM

Socialism. Not quite so radical.

I don't think classes need to be outright eliminated, not yet. We need to lessen the gap first. To do this their needs to be controlled capitalism. I don't see how pure communism could work economically. Sorry comrades.

Blackflagx · 05-17-05, 07:24 PM

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Socialism. Not quite so radical.

I don't think classes need to be outright eliminated, not yet. We need to lessen the gap first. To do this their needs to be controlled capitalism. I don't see how pure communism could work economically. Sorry comrades.

I have to say, I am pretty disapointed. I think this forum has softened you up. You need to understand that capitalism CANNOT be reformed. You can give the workers a bigger slice of the bread, but eventually they will demand the whole thing. Socialism and communism are inevitable. Plus, socialism is not "controled capitalism". Socialism is the democratic rule of the whole of the proletariat. How can you be a socialist and not a communist? I assume that you somewhat follow the theories of Karl Marx. If this is so, you should realize that nothing can stay the same, and that everything changes. Communism can work economically. The workers and consumers coordinate production and consumption and workers produce according to need. There is no money under communism so need primarily determines things. Communism is based on the free association of workers into democratically controled workplaces and a democratic economy planned by the workers and consumers councils. I hope you will reconsider your odd, new, somewhat liberal position and once again see the light of marxism!

V.I. Lenin · 05-17-05, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflagx

I have to say, I am pretty disapointed. I think this forum has softened you up. You need to understand that capitalism CANNOT be reformed. You can give the workers a bigger slice of the bread, but eventually they will demand the whole thing.

Softened? Haha, I've never been accused of being soft. I'm saying the workers should get a bigger slice, but not the whole thing. Thats greed and that's what I'm against.

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Socialism and communism are inevitable. Plus, socialism is not "controled capitalism". Socialism is the democratic rule of the whole of the proletariat.

Inevitable? I don't really think Marx was much of a Nostradamus. Socialism is the period between communism and capitalism where wealth still exists and social classes don't, or at least the gap is severly lessened.

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How can you be a socialist and not a communist? I assume that you somewhat follow the theories of Karl Marx. If this is so, you should realize that nothing can stay the same, and that everything changes.

I guess you could call me a pesimisstic communist. I don't see it happening. Sorry. Too utopian for me. Of course things change, not always for the better.

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Communism can work economically. The workers and consumers coordinate production and consumption and workers produce according to need. There is no money under communism so need primarily determines things.

Ok....I still doubt it. And no money? You're getting very Utopian-Marxist. People will eventually want things, better things. I don't believe in human "nature", you can't see we are driven towards greed...but competition breeds innovation.

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Communism is based on the free association of workers into democratically controled workplaces and a democratic economy planned by the workers and consumers councils

I'm aware. But you honestly see communism occuring anytime soon? Or anytime in your generation?

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I hope you will reconsider your odd, new, somewhat liberal position and once again see the light of marxism

Hah. I'm not a straight-edge Marxist. Marxism has disapointed me. It's time for a new approach. You can't wave pictures of Marx and expect much of the world to listen. I'm not soft, I'm a realist. It's hard to be over 18 and still a hard devout communist.