From 'Gook' to 'Raghead'

26 X World Champs · 05-02-05, 08:50 PM

Today's Bob Herbert OP-ED piece in the NY Times is truly upsetting. For any of you who think this is some sort of sick liberal bias I suggest that you check out the credentials of all involved. I also realize some of you will say this stuff happens during times of war, but wait until you read about the Coke bottles before you make up your mind. I am curious as to what you all think?

Quote:

By BOB HERBERT

Published: May 2, 2005

I spent some time recently with Aidan Delgado, a 23-year-old religion major at New College of Florida, a small, highly selective school in Sarasota.

On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, before hearing anything about the terror attacks that would change the direction of American history, Mr. Delgado enlisted as a private in the Army Reserve. Suddenly, in ways he had never anticipated, the military took over his life. He was trained as a mechanic and assigned to the 320th Military Police Company in St. Petersburg. By the spring of 2003, he was in Iraq. Eventually he would be stationed at the prison compound in Abu Ghraib.

Mr. Delgado's background is unusual. He is an American citizen, but because his father was in the diplomatic corps, he grew up overseas. He spent eight years in Egypt, speaks Arabic and knows a great deal about the various cultures of the Middle East. He wasn't happy when, even before his unit left the states, a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans.

"He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him."

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

He said he had confronted guys who were his friends about this practice. "I said to them: 'What the hell are you doing? Like, what does this accomplish?' And they responded just completely openly. They said: 'Look, I hate being in Iraq. I hate being stuck here. And I hate being surrounded by hajis.' "

"Haji" is the troops' term of choice for an Iraqi. It's used the way "gook" or "Charlie" was used in Vietnam.

Mr. Delgado said he had witnessed incidents in which an Army sergeant lashed a group of children with a steel Humvee antenna, and a Marine corporal planted a vicious kick in the chest of a kid about 6 years old. There were many occasions, he said, when soldiers or marines would yell and curse and point their guns at Iraqis who had done nothing wrong.

He said he believes that the absence of any real understanding of Arab or Muslim culture by most G.I.'s, combined with a lack of proper training and the unrelieved tension of life in a war zone, contributes to levels of fear and rage that lead to frequent instances of unnecessary violence.

Mr. Delgado, an extremely thoughtful and serious young man, balked at the entire scene. "It drove me into a moral quagmire," he said. "I walked up to my commander and gave him my weapon. I said: 'I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to kill anyone. This war is wrong. I'll stay. I'll finish my job as a mechanic. But I'm not going to hurt anyone. And I want to be processed as a conscientious objector.' "

He stayed with his unit and endured a fair amount of ostracism. "People would say I was a traitor or a coward," he said. "The stuff you would expect."

In November 2003, after several months in Nasiriya in southern Iraq, the 320th was redeployed to Abu Ghraib. The violence there was sickening, Mr. Delgado said. Some inmates were beaten nearly to death. The G.I.'s at Abu Ghraib lived in cells while most of the detainees were housed in large overcrowded tents set up in outdoor compounds that were vulnerable to mortars fired by insurgents. The Army acknowledges that at least 32 Abu Ghraib detainees were killed by mortar fire.

Mr. Delgado, who eventually got conscientious objector status and was honorably discharged last January, recalled a disturbance that occurred while he was working in the Abu Ghraib motor pool. Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

Mr. Delgado confronted a sergeant who, he said, had fired on the detainees. "I asked him," said Mr. Delgado, "if he was proud that he had shot unarmed men behind barbed wire for throwing stones. He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' "

E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com

akyron · 05-02-05, 09:09 PM

People that throw rocks at trained men with automatic weapons are begging to be drained out of the gene pool.

I read a story awhile back where over a dozen kids were wounded while tossing stones at a tanks with a mounted heavy machine gunner on it. They hit the guy and he opened up. I am not saying its right. It is just stupid and a good way to commit suicide.

Rocks can be deadly as well and if you get hit you may suffer injury or brain damage. People get stoned to death all the time in history and even religious literature.

If someone hits me with a rock and it appears more are coming they better hope I am not armed.

The abuse stuff I disagree with and they need to secure that as soon as possible.

26 X World Champs · 05-02-05, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akyron

People that throw rocks at trained men with automatic weapons are begging to be drained out of the gene pool.

If someone hits me with a rock and it appears more are coming they better hope I am not armed.

The abuse stuff I disagree with and they need to secure that as soon as possible.

However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.

ludahai · 05-02-05, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 X World Champs

However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.

My cousin just head to the North (as Iraq is referred to those stationed in Kuwait.) I am waiting to hear from him as to what he is seeing there. I will certainly trust what he tells me more than any editorialist from the New York Times.

akyron · 05-02-05, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 X World Champs

However, what you've suggested is not the case here.

Perhaps I misread it. Is appears to be exactly the case I was referring to.

Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

There are many more similar incidents occurring around the Israeli /Palestine conflict as well.

I disagree with the abusing. I already said that.

Pacridge · 05-03-05, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 X World Champs

However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.

There was a report that alluded to this back in December in US World News and Reports. I’ve asked several returning Guard members about this type activity. Basically the word I’ve gotten is it does happen but it’s certainly not the norm. Kind of the 80-20% kind of thing. Or in this case it may be more of a 95-5% situation. I think most of our guys ( and gals) are trying to do the right thing and have good moral standards. But we’ve got a lot of very young people in a very stressful situation. Couple that with some obviously poor leadership (see Abu Ghraib) and you’ve got a really bad pot of coffee brewing. Put yourself in their shoes. You go out on patrol every day wondering whether or not you’re coming back to write a letter home or whether your commander office’s going to be writing one home for you. Then every once and while some one you knows get blown up by a roadside bomb, in part due to the fact your leaders can’t seem to find your unit proper armor. Now- 95% of you probably wouldn’t get pushed over the edge by those circumstances. The other 5%?

shuamort · 05-03-05, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akyron

People get stoned to death all the time in history and even religious literature.

I don't know why, but I feel like I should expound on that thought:

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/

Quote:

"The condemned are wrapped head to foot in white shrouds and buried up to their waists.

Then the stoning begins. The stones are specifically chosen so they are large enough to cause pain, but not so large as to kill the condemned immediately. They are guaranteed a slow, torturous death. Sometimes their children are forced to watch. Their offense is usually adultery."

Pacridge · 05-03-05, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuamort

I don't know why, but I feel like I should expound on that thought:

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/

Now why would any one be fearful of a state sanctioned well organized religion? I know it could never happen here. That's why we don't see people running around with signs that say "God hates Fags." And we don't have people tied to barbed wire fences, beaten and left to die in the middle of winter because people found out they were gay. Oh, wait we do have those things happening here. Boy liberals sure are nasty and mean.

Squawker · 05-03-05, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Boy liberals sure are nasty and mean.

Let's get a little balance here. The media barely made mention of the little boy that was beaten, raped and murdered by gays. They stuffed a rag in his mouth to shut him up. We can come up with plenty of disgusting behavior by the left. I wouldn't push it unless you want the flood gates to open.

Fantasea · 05-03-05, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 X World Champs

Today's Bob Herbert OP-ED piece in the NY Times is truly upsetting. For any of you who think this is some sort of sick liberal bias I suggest that you check out the credentials of all involved. I also realize some of you will say this stuff happens during times of war, but wait until you read about the Coke bottles before you make up your mind. I am curious as to what you all think?

I've copied the paragraph dealing with the coke bottles.

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

I think there are two reasons why this tale is a tale. A fable. An untruth.

First, I don't believe that Coke that is packaged for overseas destinations is put up in glass bottles. In fact, not very much Coke in glass bottles is distributed in the US. Glass bottles are more expensive to produce than cans or plastic containers. For a given capacity, glass it is considerably heavier than an aluminum can or plastic containers. Glass bottles, because of their shape and thickness, occupy more transport space. Glass bottles are highly subject to breakage in the rough handling involved in intercontinental shipping and local distribution by military trucks over bad roads.

Are there any Coke bottles in Iraq? I seriously doubt it.

Second, is a matter of simple physics. Are these soldiers in the Humvees standing? Sitting? If they are sitting, they would be unable to strike a person on the head unless the person was standing within a foot of the passing vehicle with his head bent down. Is this reasonable? No. Is the soldier standing? If so, we still have the problem of a person standing within a foot of the passing vehicle. Only now he may be erect. Still not reasonable.

In either case, if the bottle is swung and strikes the victim's head, because of the movement of the vehicle, it can only be glancing blow which would deflect the bottle. Then, too, if the target is wearing a turban, or any other kind of headgear, as Muslims do, much of the force would be absorbed and the bottle would not shatter.

Did you say that the bottle was thrown? Well, that's not much help to the story. After all, we still have a moving vehicle, a live target still most likely wearing a turban or other headgear, to which we add, a greater distance to throw, good aim required to get a head shot.

The greater the distance involved, the slower the projectile will be moving when it reaches the target, further reducing the likelihood that any shattering will occur.

This story reads like a second rate TV soap opera that is filled with fabricated inconsistencies which are required to make the plot work.

But then, what would one expect from the mirror image of Corporal Max Klinger of M*A*S*H fame; the epitome of the malcontent who was constantly dreaming up new schemes to try to get himself out of the army?

The only difference between them is that Klinger repeatedly failed to get out but Delgado managed to succeed.

I guess it was a slow day at the NY Slimes that there was so many column inches that could be used by Mr. Herbert who obviously slept through the physics classes, if he took any.

Damn, I can never find the BS emoticon when I need it.

This is the best I can do right now. (_?_)