aquapub

The only mention of anything like Separation of Church and State in the Constitution is in the 1st Amendment, where the newly created federal government is being denied the right to create a federal religion: "Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion..."

Somewhere along the line, this restriction of the federal government's power was "creatively interpreted" by anti-Christians into meaning that the federal government could remove all things Christian (and only Christian) from all levels of government, even local municipalities.

It is a perversion of what was intended.

BTW, I am not Christian, so don't go there.

Also, please, before anyone starts citing quotes from Ben Franklin preaching about the evils of government and the church (which he only warned about when it came to the federal government), consider that Ben Franklin proposed a law to have men castrated for premarital sex.

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ProudAmerican

Its nice to see a non-Christian understand this topic.

As far as quotes are concerned.....I can certainly list several that proved the founders had no problem with religion being a part of government.

Seperation meant there would be no state or government run religious institutions....and as far as I know, there are none.

It was NEVER intended to remove all facits of Christianity from daily government life.

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Alex

Why does The Constitution forbid an establishment of religion? So people can decide for themselves without government interference.

Putting (insert specific religion) symbols on goverment property is stating that our government is a (insert specific religion) state. That is establishing it as a specific religious state. That is why it is forbidden. Having the religious freedom that we do, we do not understand the problems that can arise from this. We take it for granted that the religion of our choice will prevail because we do not know anything else.

Keep in mind that Christianity is fading fast in this country. Would you be alright if Atheist, Islam, Buddist, and/or Pagan symbols were put on government land? I think not. Then all Christians would use the 1st Amendment to keep there religious freedom.

It is best to keep all religion, and all aspects of religion, out of government so everyone can easily decide for themselves. If it were not an issue, it never would have been put into our Constitution.

ProudAmerican

absolutely.

how does saying "under God" in the pledge prevent people from deciding for themselves? (I only bring this up because of the effort to remove that statement from the pledge)

how do Christmas scenes on government property prevent them from deciding?

how does a statue, or stone tablet of the 10 commandments prevent it?

I dissagree....but lets say I agreed......then why would Christian symbols be the only ones under attack?

hardly. I wouldnt think that so many would be so concerned about a religion that is fading so fast. I submit that people are concerned because of exactly the opposite.

it would seem the ACLU doesnt have a problem with some religions

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=48487

and I believe not allowing people to pray is what is truly against our constitution.

I would agree, if this country had not been founded on religious freedom. The very men that constructed our founding documents thought religion was a substantial part of our foundation.

thats the point of this thread. IT WASNT PUT INTO OUR CONSTITUTION.

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

do those sound like comments from men that would not want religion allowed into the government?

our founders clearly did not want the GOVERNMENT TO INSTITUE ANY ONE RELIGION AS A NATIONAL RELIGION. and I am fine with that. That is the very reason they fled England in the first place.

however, to claim they didnt think religion in general had a place in government when they would write such things as

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

is just crazy...

Alex

Because it pressures people into believing what their government sponsors. We cannot understand this because the Supreme Court has protected us from it.

I allowed the reader to insert whatever religion they wanted. Nice dodge. I'll play along though. As I already stated, any and all religion should not be allowed to be incorporated into a government of free-society. That statement is not only towards Christians.

That would be a bad submission on your part. The evidence says that Christianity is fading. Read it yourself:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archiv...hlight=atheism (Atheism on the Rise)

There is no law or Supreme Court ruling that bans prayer in schools. The ruling bans teacher-led and school sponsored prayer because it is coercive. The religious right want people to believe that prayer has completely been banned so they can outrage people into joining them. Read the ruling yourself:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...0&page=421#422

Religious freedom means keeping the government out of it completely. This country was not founded on religion, it was founded on The Constitution.

The establishment Clause WAS put into our Constitution.

Quotes from the founding fathers are used in an attempt to win people over to the appropriate side. An alleged quote from George Washington says, “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” Another supposed Washington quote states, “The path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.”

The quotes from George Washington lead the reader into opposite directions. How can we be sure which one is correct? To think that anyone living today, whether atheist or theist, could possibly know what someone believed in who live two hundred years ago, would be arrogant. Beliefs pass on with the person, and it is not known if anyone was always responsible to maintain the integrity of these quotes. Can you say for sure that these quotes are accurate?

"Creator"? A creator does not necessarily mean a god. A creator can mean a person's mother.

Furthermore, The Declaration of Independence is just that, a declaration. It is not law. If the founders really intended for religion to be a part of the government, they would have included it in our Constitution.

Scarecrow Akhbar

That, and the total absence of any other mention of religion in the Constitution, might be a clue to how the government is supposed to be run. Without official connection between government and any church. Frankly, the people that wrote the Constitution weren't so stupid as to think that excessive church influence on government would lead to eventual government influence on the church.

You guys do realize that the Establishment Clause is to protect the freedom of the people, don't you?

Getting a bit sloppy in your phraseology. SOME people's view of the Establishment Clause makes them excise solely Christian mummery, the rest of us reasonable people understand that it forbids ALL mummery.

Here's the dilemma, ignored by all thinkng religion has a place in any government activity:

What message is given when a "non-denominational" opening prayer is given at some ceremony? No one can talk to the God of Jesus, the God of Abraham, Allah the Lowest, Vishnu, Buddha, The Mighty Rowan, the Coyote, and Satan all at the same time with equal sincerity to all. Not to mention the atheist, who is either bored, amused, or annoyed by the time wasted on the foolishness of it all.

True enough, I think the utterance of a simple prayer doesn't actually hurt anyone. It's only when religious icons take inappropriate prominence in secular places that it becomes worrisome. "In God We Trust" on MONEY? After all that work Jesus did in elevating abject poverty to a virtue? Shame. Besides which, it's a false statement. It's a perversion.

The Ten Commandments as a monument in a courthouse? Come on, anyone that can recite the Ten Suggestions knows also that none of them have a direct influence on American law. The secular laws against murder and perjury and theft and adultery are common to all societies regardless of their religion because that's how stable societies evolved. This is a real perversion, and definitely counter to the intent of the First Amendment.

Forcing the nonsense about "under God" in a flag poem, after that poem has been weirdly elevated by federal law into a bizarre affirmation of patriotism? The guys that wrote the Constitution never imagined a Pledge of Allegiance, let alone making it a religious statement. This goes straight to freedom of speech, and runs totally contrary the First Amendment's intent.

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Scarecrow Akhbar

It states that the Government has already decided. That's a violation of the First Amendment in it's establishment of religion as real.


Because the same government sponsoring the baby-in-the-cow-feeder is also the government that's supposed to make law and judge cases on jews impartially, on muslims impartially, on wiccan's impartially, on Navajo peyote eaters impartially, and on atheists impartially.

The only rational way impartiality can be demonstrated is by refraining from any support for any religion at all.

It doesn't, but there's really no need for a government based on the equality of man to flaunt nonsense tablets ordering man to worship only one particular
God.

Well, I won't argue with this. All symbols should be verboten. That's the spirit of the FA, after all.

Lachean

As far as I knew, the ACLU gets involved if tax dollars are spent "respecting an establishment of religion." Or people being made to include "under god" considering it wasnt even origionally in the pledge.

As far as the whole "war on christmas" thing, I think a proprietor of any shop should be able to display whatever he wants, be it x-mas or god knows what. But thats how I feel about smoking bans too...

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FallingPianos

agreed. though I would also like to see an amendment passed that bans any public funding going to churches and religious art etc.

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ProudAmerican

Alex, I dont have time for monstrous posts so I will deal with a couple of your points.

if you think a poll is enough to convince me Christianity is on the decline....well......sorry.

no, it doesnt. your entire argument is based on an opinion. Mine is based on the Declaration if independance, and the beliefs of the men that founded this nation.

talk about desperation. I would think you could do better than that. I know.....they were talking about santa clause.

unfortunately for you, they put it down in black and white and signed it. unless of course, you believe they were talking about someones mom, or the tooth fairy.