Chavez Says He May Seek 'Indefinite' Re-election - Page 11

Trajan Octavian Titus · 07-20-06, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dave

Further coup attempts e.t.c Theres plenty of media opposition so i doubt its surpressed.

so that requires a million manned militia? I don't think so and I've already posted the law which prohibits speaking out against the government.

Napoleon's Nightingale · 07-20-06, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightatNYU

Debt that is controlled in proportion to GDP is fine. Debt that grows by 1500% in 6 years and is still increasing exponentially is not.

It's really not that hard a concept.

When social services are rapidly and suddenly made available to the majority of the population then of course the debt is going to increase rapidly. It's similar to the spontaneous creation of a new government department which is immediatley given funding. It's really not that hard a concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightatNYU

Hahahahaha, so when people protest and strike against a right-wing leader, you consider it to be a "peoples movement," but when it happens against a leftist dictator, you consider it sabotage?

It was sabotage. The opposition hates that Chavez is decreasing the poverty rate and making the economy prosperous for the first time in decades so they organized a strike in the oil industry which severely damaged the economy. Their effort is not a "peoples movement" because they are hurting the people of Venezuela and not supported by the majority of the population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightatNYU

Look at your own list.

You look at it. I was asked to provide the names of countries with better unemployment stats and I did. Of course, when prooven wrong you resorted to attacking those nations, trivializing them, and whining about the types of employment they have. Don't be a troll.

RightinNYC · 07-21-06, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napoleon's Nightingale

When social services are rapidly and suddenly made available to the majority of the population then of course the debt is going to increase rapidly. It's similar to the spontaneous creation of a new government department which is immediatley given funding. It's really not that hard a concept.

Apparently you're not doing so well with understanding the scope of this.

Fine. Let's pretend like its really not that surprising, and like it's totally expected. What do you think is going to happen?

Venezuela literally cannot function with debt increasing at this rate for much longer. The economy will crash, badly, and then those people who you are so happy have been given benefits will be worse off than before.

Any rebuttal?

Quote:

It was sabotage. The opposition hates that Chavez is decreasing the poverty rate and making the economy prosperous for the first time in decades so they organized a strike in the oil industry which severely damaged the economy. Their effort is not a "peoples movement" because they are hurting the people of Venezuela and not supported by the majority of the population.

They opposed the policies of their government and organized a labor strike to protest it. You call that sabotage.

You and JD Rockefeller would have gotten along just fine, you right-wing corporatist.

Quote:

You look at it. I was asked to provide the names of countries with better unemployment stats and I did. Of course, when prooven wrong you resorted to attacking those nations, trivializing them, and whining about the types of employment they have. Don't be a troll.

I pointed out why it was foolish to assume that the two types of nations were at all comparable. If you consider that trolling, then you're beyond my help.

Napoleon's Nightingale · 07-21-06, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightatNYU

Apparently you're not doing so well with understanding the scope of this.

Fine. Let's pretend like its really not that surprising, and like it's totally expected. What do you think is going to happen?

Venezuela literally cannot function with debt increasing at this rate for much longer. The economy will crash, badly, and then those people who you are so happy have been given benefits will be worse off than before.

Any rebuttal?

I highly doubt that your doom and gloom scenario will play out. The Venezuelan economy shows no signs of an impending collapse and the government has taken measures to provide additional income so that it doesn't have to borrow so much money ie increasing taxes on oil companies and opening their fields to other nations and purchasing foreign bonds and buying their own back. Their public debt is only 32% of GDP while the U.S. has a public debt of 64.7% of GDP. Their public debt is also in decline.

Red_Dave · 07-21-06, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

so that requires a million manned militia? I don't think so and I've already posted the law which prohibits speaking out against the government.

Yes, if your in a situation where coups, civil wars and maybe even invasion are likely you need some way of defending the government. The army didnt help much with this when it was last needed. I doubt there is any law that forbids speaking out against the government. If there was the opossition media would not be constantly calling for the governments overthrow.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 07-21-06, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dave

Yes, if your in a situation where coups, civil wars and maybe even invasion are likely you need some way of defending the government.

Ya and the Gestapo was just there to keep order.

Quote:

The army didnt help much with this when it was last needed. I doubt there is any law that forbids speaking out against the government. If there was the opossition media would not be constantly calling for the governments overthrow.

Oh but there is:

Quote:

Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Televisionarticle 53c prohibits and I quote "disrespect toward legitimate institutions and authorities."

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=16&year=2005&country=6862

Quote:

1. Desacato laws (insults to authority)

451. As was stated in the section dealing with the Supreme Court’s judgment of July 15, 2003, Venezuela’s criminal laws contain provisions that are incompatible with Article 13 of the Convention. An example of this are those laws that criminalize offensive statements made against public officials, known as desacato laws (insults to authority).

452. Venezuela’s Criminal Code contains a series of provisions that, if enforced, would restrict full enjoyment of freedom of expression by criminalizing offensive statements made about public officials. These precepts are the following:

Article 148. Any person who offends, verbally or in writing or in any other fashion, the President of the Republic or the person serving in that capacity shall be punished with a prison term of between six and thirty months, if the offense was serious, and of half that duration, if it was slight.

The punishment shall be increased by one-third if the offense was made publicly.

If the offense was made against the President of either Chamber of the Legislature or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the punishment shall be from four months to two years, if the offense was serious, and half that duration, if it was slight.

Article 149. When the actions described in the Article above are made against the Governor of one of the nation’s States, or against Cabinet Ministers, the General Secretary of the President’s Office, the Governor of the Federal District or Federal Territories, Supreme Court Justices, the Presidents of the State Legislatures, and Superior Judges, or against persons serving in those capacities, the punishment indicated in that Article shall be reduced to one-half; and, with respect to Presidents of Municipal Councils, Federal District Department Prefects, or District Civil Chiefs, it shall be reduced to one-third.

Article 150. Any person who publicly insults the Congress, the Chambers of the National Legislature, the Supreme Court of Justice, the Cabinet or Council of Ministers, any of the Legislatures or Legislative Assemblies of the nation’s states, or any of the Superior Courts, shall be punished by a prison term of between fifteen days and ten months.

Those who carry out the same acts against Municipal Councilors shall receive half that punishment.

The punishments shall be increased by one-half if the offense was made during performance of official functions by the institutions in question.

Article 151. The courts shall be responsible for distinguishing the serious and slight offenses referred to in Articles 148, 149, and 150.

Article 152. Prosecution for the actions referred to in the articles above shall not commence except at the request of the offended person or institution, lodged with the competent judge through the offices of the Public Prosecution Service.

[...]

Article 223. Any person who, by word or deed, offends in any way the honor, reputation, or dignity of a member of Congress or any public official shall be punished as indicated below, if the offense was made in the presence thereof and in connection with their functions:

1. If the offense was directed against a law-enforcement officer, with a prison term of one to three months.

2. If the offense was directed against a member of Congress or a public official, with a prison term of one month to one year, according to the rank of the person in question.

Article 224. If the action described in the Article above is accompanied by violence or threats, it shall be punishable by a prison term of between three and eighteen months.
Any person who, in another way not provided for in the cases listed in the previous chapter, makes use of violence against or threatens a member of Congress or other public official, should that act take place as a result of the victim’s functions, shall be punishable with the same punishments.

Article 225. When any of the actions described in the above articles is committed against a public official not as a result of his functions but at a moment in which he is performing them, the same punishments shall apply, with a reduction of between one-third and one-half.

Article 226. Any person who, by word or by deed, offends in any way the honor, reputation, or dignity of a judicial, political, or administrative body, if the crime is committed at a time when it is established, or any magistrate in a hearing, shall be punished with a prison term of between three months and two years.

If the perpetrator used violence or threats, the prison term shall be from six months to three years.

Prosecution shall take place only by means of a request lodged by the offended party. If the crime is committed against bodies not meeting at the time, the prosecution shall only proceed following a request made by its presiding members.

Said request shall be lodged with the Public Prosecution Service in order for the applicable steps to be taken.

Article 227. In the cases provided for in the Articles above, the guilty party shall not be allowed to admit any evidence regarding the truthfulness or notoriety of the allegations or defects with which the offended party is accused. [235]

http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Venezuela2003eng/chapter6.htm

Red_Dave · 07-21-06, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

Ya and the Gestapo was just there to keep order.

Oh but there is:

How else do you think the government should defend itself? the armys hardly going to help. What you,ve got to remember is that the law you,ve posted is not the origional due to the fact that the origional would be in spannish. Its been tanslated by a biased third party.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 07-21-06, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dave

How else do you think the government should defend itself? the armys hardly going to help.

You don't need a million man militia for any other reason but to oppress and control the populace, because once the people realize this tyrant for what he is and vote his *** out of office he will undoubtedly call upon the militia to preserve his power seeing as he has already proven his contempt for the democratic process in his failed coup attempt in the 90s.

Quote:

What you,ve got to remember is that the law you,ve posted is not the origional due to the fact that the origional would be in spannish. Its been tanslated by a biased third party.

No what I've got to remember is that you're obviously an apologist for tyrants and any evidence presented to you will be denied because to accept such an ugly truth would force you to see yourself for what you really are.

The inter-American Commission on human rights is a reputable unbiased source but here's the law in spanish anyways:

Quote:

Artículo 148. El que ofendiere de palabra o por escrito, o de cualquiera otra manera irrespetare al Presidente de la República o a quien esté haciendo sus veces, será castigado con prisión de seis a treinta meses, si la ofensa fuere grave, y con la mitad de esta pena, si fuere leve.

La pena se aumentará en una tercera parte si la ofensa se hubiere hecho públicamente.
Si la ofensa fuere contra el Presidente de alguna de las Cámaras Legislativas o el Presidente de la Corte Suprema de Justicia, la pena será de cuatro meses a dos años, cuando la ofensa fuere grave y con la mitad de esta pena, cuando fuere leve.

Artículo 149. Cuando los hechos especificados en el artículo precedente se efectuaren contra el Gobernador de alguno de los Estados de la Unión, o contra los Ministros del Despacho, Secretario General del Presidente de la República, Gobernadores del Distrito Federal o de los Territorios Federales, los Vocales de la Corte Suprema de Justicia, los Presidentes de las Legislaturas de los Estados y los Jueces Superiores, o contra la persona que esté haciendo sus veces, la pena indicada en dicho artículo se reducirá a su mitad, y a su tercera parte si se trata de Presidentes de Concejos Municipales, Prefectos de Departamentos del Distrito Federal o Jefes Civiles de Distrito.

Artículo 150. Cualquiera que vilipendiare públicamente al Congreso, a las Cámaras Legislativas Nacionales, a la Corte Suprema de Justicia o al Gabinete o Consejo de Ministros, así como a alguna de las Legislaturas o Asambleas Legislativas de los Estados de la Unión o a algunos de los Tribunales Superiores, será castigado con prisión de quince días a diez meses.

En la mitad de dicha pena incurrirán los que cometieren los hechos a que se refiere este artículo, con respecto a los Concejos Municipales.

La pena se aumentará proporcionalmente en la mitad, si la ofensa se hubiere cometido hallándose las expresadas Corporaciones en ejercicio de sus funciones oficiales.

Artículo 151. Corresponde a los Tribunales de Justicia determinar sobre la gravedad o lenidad de las ofensas a que se refieren los artículos 148, 149 y 150.

Artículo 152. El enjuiciamiento por los hechos de que hablan los artículos precedentes no se hace lugar sino mediante requerimiento de la persona o cuerpo ofendido, hecho por conducto del Representante del Ministerio Público, ante el Juez competente.
[...]

Artículo 223. El que de palabra u obra ofendiere de alguna manera el honor, la reputación o el decoro de un miembro del Congreso, o de algún funcionario público, será castigado del modo que sigue, si el hecho ha tenido lugar en su presencia y con motivo de sus funciones:

1º.- Si la ofensa se ha dirigido contra algún agente de la fuerza pública, con prisión de uno a tres meses.

2º.- Si la ofensa se ha dirigido contra un miembro del Congreso o algún funcionario público, con prisión de un mes a un año según la categoría de dichas personas.

Artículo 224. Si el hecho previsto en el artículo precedente ha sido acompañado de violencia o amenaza, se castigará con prisión de tres a dieciocho meses.

Cualquiera que de algún otro modo y fuera de los casos previstos en el Capítulo anterior, haga uso de violencia o amenaza, contra un miembro del Congreso o algún funcionario público, si el hecho tiene lugar con motivo de las funciones del ofendido, será castigado con las mismas penas.

Artículo 225. Cuando alguno de los hechos previstos en los artículos precedentes se haya cometido contra algún funcionario público, no por causa de sus funciones, sino en el momento mismo de estar ejerciéndolas, se aplicarán las mismas penas, reducidas de una tercera parte a la mitad.

Artículo 226. El que de palabra o de obra ofendiere de alguna manera el honor, la reputación, decoro o dignidad de algún cuerpo judicial, político o administrativo, si el delito se ha cometido en el acto de hallarse constituido, o de algún magistrado en audiencia será castigado con prisión de tres meses a dos años.

Si el culpable ha hecho uso de violencia o amenazas, la prisión será de seis meses a tres años.

El enjuiciamiento no se hará lugar sino mediante requerimiento del cuerpo ofendido. Si el delito se ha cometido contra cuerpos no reunidos, el enjuiciamiento sólo se hará lugar mediante requerimiento de los miembros que los presiden.

Este requerimiento se dirigirá al Representante del Ministerio Público para que promueva lo conducente.

Artículo 227. En los casos previstos en los artículos precedentes, no se admitirá al culpable prueba alguna sobre la verdad ni aún sobre la notoriedad de los hechos o de los defectos imputados a la parte ofendida. [235]

I knew those two courses of college spanish would come in handy for something.

RightinNYC · 07-23-06, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napoleon's Nightingale

I highly doubt that your doom and gloom scenario will play out. The Venezuelan economy shows no signs of an impending collapse and the government has taken measures to provide additional income so that it doesn't have to borrow so much money ie increasing taxes on oil companies and opening their fields to other nations and purchasing foreign bonds and buying their own back. Their public debt is only 32% of GDP while the U.S. has a public debt of 64.7% of GDP. Their public debt is also in decline.

Their public debt is NOT in decline, where did you hear that? Did you see the graph posted earlier?

And yes, their debt is percentage wise not as significant as ours. But the problem is their rate of change. Our debt has remained relatively steady as a % of GDP for a long time. Their debt has increased exponentially to 32% in previous years, showing no sign of slowing down. That is very very very bad.

Napoleon's Nightingale · 07-24-06, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightatNYU

Their public debt is NOT in decline, where did you hear that? Did you see the graph posted earlier?

Their public debt was 38.8% of GDP in 2004 and 34.2% of GDP in 2005. That is a decline.