Thought experiment

molten_dragon · 02-08-10, 06:25 PM

Pro-choice people often use an argument similar to the following to support their position:

It's legal to kill someone if they are on your property and you don't want them there.

Pro-life people often respond with something similar to the following:

Yes, but it's not legal to kill them if they were invited.

I'd like to do a thought experiment based upon something similar here.

Let's assume that you're walking home from work when you see a homeless person begging for change. You feel sorry for him and invite him to come home with you and have a hot meal. He accepts and comes with you to your home, where you invite him in and feed him dinner.

You aren't comfortable with him spending the night in your house, so after dinner, you ask him to leave. He responds that he can't leave, because it is 20 below zero outside, and he'll freeze to death if he has to leave.

Let's assume for whatever reason that there's nowhere else he can go, his only two options are to stay in your home for the night or die.

Do you have the right to make him leave?

Chuz Life · 02-08-10, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

Do you have the right to make him leave?

Given the details that you have provided.

The legal answer is no.

It's called "wrongful death"

: a death caused by the negligent, willful, or wrongful act, neglect, omission, or default of another

molten_dragon · 02-08-10, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuz Life

Given the details that you have provided.

The legal answer is no.

Doesn't that go against the whole basis for your argument against abortion then.

"One person's rights end where another person's begin". Isn't that the gist of it?

Chuz Life · 02-08-10, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

Doesn't that go against the whole basis for your argument against abortion then.

"One person's rights end where another person's begin". Isn't that the gist of it?

How in the hell do you twist one far enough to get the other?

No time for more,.. I gotta go.

::

::

iangb · 02-08-10, 07:29 PM

I don't want to drag this off-topic, but Chuz's response reminded me of a related thought experiment I was going to ask him about.

Same thought experiment as the OP, only instead of inviting the homeless man in from the street you arrive home from work to find that a stranger has broken into your house and left a baby there. Given that the baby was not invited, would it now be justified to put it out into the cold?

(Yes, I'm questioning how you can justify abortion in the case of rape but not allow it in the case of protected sex.)

Jerry · 02-08-10, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

Pro-choice people often use an argument similar to the following to support their position:

It's legal to kill someone if they are on your property and you don't want them there.

Pro-life people often respond with something similar to the following:

Yes, but it's not legal to kill them if they were invited.

I'd like to do a thought experiment based upon something similar here.

Let's assume that you're walking home from work when you see a homeless person begging for change. You feel sorry for him and invite him to come home with you and have a hot meal. He accepts and comes with you to your home, where you invite him in and feed him dinner.

You aren't comfortable with him spending the night in your house, so after dinner, you ask him to leave. He responds that he can't leave, because it is 20 below zero outside, and he'll freeze to death if he has to leave.

Let's assume for whatever reason that there's nowhere else he can go, his only two options are to stay in your home for the night or die.

Do you have the right to make him leave?

No.

If every alternative will cause him to die, then I have no right to kick him out unless he is a danger to me.

Jerry · 02-08-10, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iangb

I don't want to drag this off-topic, but Chuz's response reminded me of a related thought experiment I was going to ask him about.

Same thought experiment as the OP, only instead of inviting the homeless man in from the street you arrive home from work to find that a stranger has broken into your house and left a baby there. Given that the baby was not invited, would it now be justified to put it out into the cold?

(Yes, I'm questioning how you can justify abortion in the case of rape but not allow it in the case of protected sex.)

No, and for the same reason.

Jerry · 02-08-10, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuz Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

Doesn't that go against the whole basis for your argument against abortion then.

"One person's rights end where another person's begin". Isn't that the gist of it?

How in the hell do you twist one far enough to get the other?

I see it as a clear parallel.

The home = your body.
The weather = biological "viability" or the lack there-of.

Per your argument, willful abortion of a ZEF which can not survive is "wrongful death".

kerussll · 02-08-10, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

Pro-choice people often use an argument similar to the following to support their position:

It's legal to kill someone if they are on your property and you don't want them there.

Pro-life people often respond with something similar to the following:

Yes, but it's not legal to kill them if they were invited.

I'd like to do a thought experiment based upon something similar here.

Let's assume that you're walking home from work when you see a homeless person begging for change. You feel sorry for him and invite him to come home with you and have a hot meal. He accepts and comes with you to your home, where you invite him in and feed him dinner.

You aren't comfortable with him spending the night in your house, so after dinner, you ask him to leave. He responds that he can't leave, because it is 20 below zero outside, and he'll freeze to death if he has to leave.

Let's assume for whatever reason that there's nowhere else he can go, his only two options are to stay in your home for the night or die.

Do you have the right to make him leave?

I don't think it would be right to do so, but I believe legally you would have the right to make him leave. We don't force people to give share their houses with strangers. How many other homeless people are out there on the street freezing to death while nobody does anything? Are citizens required to help them too?

hazlnut · 02-08-10, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuz Life

Given the details that you have provided.

The legal answer is no.

It's called "wrongful death"

: a death caused by the negligent, willful, or wrongful act, neglect, omission, or default of another

Whoa, slow down, Perry Mason!

That's a stretch -- Omission?? By that logic we'd all be guilty if we didn't open our doors to homeless people on freezing cold nights.

Call the police. Explain the situation, you fed him and now you'd like him to leave. Problem solved.

02-08-10, 06:25 PM	#1
molten_dragon Anti-Hypocrite Join Date: Oct 2009 Last Seen: Today 05:31 AM Location: Hell on Earth Posts: 1,306 Thanks: 239 Thanked 451 Times in 284 Posts Lean: Slightly Liberal Gender:	Thought experiment Pro-choice people often use an argument similar to the following to support their position: It's legal to kill someone if they are on your property and you don't want them there. Pro-life people often respond with something similar to the following: Yes, but it's not legal to kill them if they were invited. I'd like to do a thought experiment based upon something similar here. Let's assume that you're walking home from work when you see a homeless person begging for change. You feel sorry for him and invite him to come home with you and have a hot meal. He accepts and comes with you to your home, where you invite him in and feed him dinner. You aren't comfortable with him spending the night in your house, so after dinner, you ask him to leave. He responds that he can't leave, because it is 20 below zero outside, and he'll freeze to death if he has to leave. Let's assume for whatever reason that there's nowhere else he can go, his only two options are to stay in your home for the night or die. Do you have the right to make him leave?
	__________________ If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

02-08-10, 07:29 PM	#5
iangb Student Join Date: Dec 2009 Last Seen: Today 02:00 PM Location: Birmingham Posts: 247 Thanks: 71 Thanked 84 Times in 60 Posts Lean: Independent Gender:	Re: Thought experiment I don't want to drag this off-topic, but Chuz's response reminded me of a related thought experiment I was going to ask him about. Same thought experiment as the OP, only instead of inviting the homeless man in from the street you arrive home from work to find that a stranger has broken into your house and left a baby there. Given that the baby was not invited, would it now be justified to put it out into the cold? (Yes, I'm questioning how you can justify abortion in the case of rape but not allow it in the case of protected sex.)
	__________________ The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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