Just Desserts

rivrrat · Jun 2, 2009

americanwoman said:
At 26+ weeks you can remove the baby without killing it. I almost had to go early because of pre-eclampsia- and that is life threatening. I ended up going only a couple weeks early. We had to do what was best for mother and baby, and I can say I only thought of what was best for the baby over me.

And do you know if removing a fetus without killing it is always possible for every life threatening medical condition a pregnant woman may have?

winston53660 · Jun 2, 2009

rivrrat said:
After a lot of purposeful reading I've found that the "health of the mother" is pretty much the only reason for late term abortions.

I agree........

DeeJayH · Jun 2, 2009

rivrrat said:
After a lot of purposeful reading I've found that the "health of the mother" is pretty much the only reason for late term abortions.

hmmm common ground hmmmmm

oh wait, what about a severely handicapped fetus
Severely

RedAkston · Jun 2, 2009

I know that abortion is a very touchy subject with most of us. I stayed out of the other thread because by the time I got to it, it was 400+ posts long already. But I'll give my 2 cents here. For full disclosure, I believe abortion is murder.

I lived in Kansas City from 1997-2008. I knew of Tiller as he was somewhat local to KC. I've met women who had abortions performed by Tiller, all of which later regretted having the abortion. None of their lives were threatened, they just got scared and claimed to have had stress from being pregnant, which was one of the reasons Tiller performed the abortions. All of this stems from a poorly written law in Kansas that allows for this type of thing that has yet to be fixed. What he did was legal, but immoral IMO. But there's much more to the story than what you have picked up on the news in the past few days. Tiller skirted the law and even violated it on numerous occasions. He wasn't the squeaky clean doctor in a white lab coat that some of you believe he was.

When I heard what had happened, my first thought was that he got his "just desserts". He murdered babies and ironically he was murdered himself. I despised the man for doing what he did for a living (and it wasn't all pretty flowers, rainbows and picnics in the park like rivrrat claims). I certainly didn't (and don't) condone one person murdering another unless it is in self-defense, but then again that isn't murder. My second thought was the black-eye that the pro-lifers just suffered at the hands of a lunatic. The accused murderer just painted the pro-life crowd with the same brush that the 9/11 attackers painted the muslim world with. It wasn't fair to the muslims then and it isn't fair to the pro-lifers now.

I'm not happy that Tiller is dead, despite my feelings towards him. He didn't deserve to die the way he did and I hope they prosecute the accused murderer to the fullest extent of the law. I also hope they fix the law in Kansas that Tiller so cunningly danced around.

DeeJayH · Jun 2, 2009

P/N said:
I'm not happy that Tiller is dead, despite my feelings towards him. He didn't deserve to die the way he did and I hope they prosecute the accused murderer to the fullest extent of the law. I also hope they fix the law in Kansas that Tiller so cunningly danced around.

so do you think he should have had his head cracked open and had his brains sucked out ? :lol:

howard stern is portraying tiller as a guy who only saved womens lives & aborted severely abnormal children

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Tucker Case said:
Meh. There is very little chance this murder saved all that many fetuses. Someone else will perform the procedures.

I respectfully disagree, Savage tiller was one of three barbarians to do this in the US.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

OKgrannie said:
There is a difference between "the blues" and suicidal depression, and it does no service to your side to minimize the severe effects of suicidal depression.

Perhaps them bitches should have offed themselves before they got pregnant. Or at least decided to have an abortion sometime before the 9nth month.

Freakin monsters. :2wave:

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Saboteur said:
I'm just saying that if one is pro-life then they should be pro-life. People should stand up for what they believe I agree, but to answer what one believes is murder with murder doesn't solve anything. The man who killed George Tiller did nothing but take away his own freedom.

It makes it 1/3 less hard to get one of themlate term depression abortions, no? :lol:

I am pro-life in that I am against the wanton killing of the innocents for the sake of convienence.

you can call me "anti-abortion" if you prefer, if that vernacular makes you more comfortable.

Perhaps Dr. Tiller deserved to die for performing abortions I don't know, I'm just a human. But I definately know Scott Roeder deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I agree with the 2nd part. He will pay for acting on his beliefs. They both did.,

Oftencold · Jun 2, 2009

rivrrat said:
After a lot of purposeful reading I've found that the "health of the mother" is pretty much the only reason for late term abortions.

Tell ya' what. I'm at work right now and have limited time to research this. But I believe the most famous quote involoved the inventor of the ghastly procedure admitting that it is almost always performed electively for reasons other than health.

I could be wrong but I seem to recall that. I'll look into it in when I have more time.

Oftencold · Jun 2, 2009

rivrrat said:
And do you know if removing a fetus without killing it is always possible for every life threatening medical condition a pregnant woman may have?

Would you be disappointed it it were?

Orion · Jun 2, 2009

I don't support his murder but I understand why, among the radical aspect of the pro-life crowd, some would feel the urgent need to do something about this guy. I'm familiar with the procedures involved in late term abortions, and they're just disgusting. After 21 weeks the fetus is more than aware of the procedure and there is plenty of evidence to back this up. Past the viability period, it can survive outside of the womb in intensive care.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Perhaps them bitches should have offed themselves before they got pregnant.

This is uncalled for.

It's possible to not know you are pregnant until it's very late in the game. A lot of women don't show at all until the latest stages. In fact, if you do some basic research on partial birth abortion, you'll discover that the most common cited reason for late term abortion is just that.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Orius said:
I don't support his murder but I understand why, among the radical aspect of the pro-life crowd, some would feel the urgent need to do something about this guy. I'm familiar with the procedures involved in late term abortions, and they're just disgusting. After 21 weeks the fetus is more than aware of the procedure and there is plenty of evidence to back this up. Past the viability period, it can survive outside of the womb in intensive care.

This is uncalled for.

Given what you wrote just before that I highlighted in red, how could anything less be called for?

It's possible to not know you are pregnant until it's very late in the game. A lot of women don't show at all until the latest stages. In fact, if you do some basic research on partial birth abortion, you'll discover that the most common cited reason for late term abortion is just that.

Really? I did not know that. Can you show me with links for this claim? Thanks.

Still. Too late. So sorry. if you found out at 8 months you were pregnant, killing the human inside you is not acceptable because you are now inconvienenced,.

Orion · Jun 2, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Given what you wrote just before that I highlighted in red, how could anything less be called for?

I just think calling them bitches is unwarranted, when you don't even know the circumstances or the stories for why an abortion is being sought. This is my problem with the adament pro-life crowd... they think they know better than everyone else, using their blanket statements.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Really? I did not know that. Can you show me with links for this claim? Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion#United_States said:
420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]

* 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
* 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
* 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
* 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
* 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
* 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
* 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
* 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
* 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
* 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
* 11% Other

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Still. Too late. So sorry. if you found out at 8 months you were pregnant, killing the human inside you is not acceptable because you are now inconvienenced,.

I'm not arguing for late term abortion, I'm arguing against you calling them bitches as if they were lazy and simply asked for the situation to be brought upon them. As shown above, there are MANY reasons for wanting a late term abortion.

Seems to me that you, like many pro-lifers, have difficulty treating the woman with equal respect as you do the life inside of her. It's the biggest point of hypocrisy that can be pointed out with the usual arguments. You have no regard for the woman yet have all the regard for the fetus, regardless of its stage of development.

Are you also against abortion in all cases? Such as rape, therapeutic purposes, etc.?

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Orius said:
I just think calling them bitches is unwarranted, when you don't even know the circumstances or the stories for why an abortion is being sought. This is my problem with the adament pro-life crowd... they think they know better than everyone else, using their blanket statements.

Let me be clear. The bitches I am refering to are the whiney "Depressed" ones who have an elective late term abortion where no ones life is threatened.

I hope this clears it up.

I'm not arguing for late term abortion, I'm arguing against you calling them bitches as if they were lazy and simply asked for the situation to be brought upon them. As shown above, there are MANY reasons for wanting a late term abortion.

As for your statistics, I call BS on "74%" of those 420 women. I don't believe them.

And finding out late is not an excuse to kill for convienence either. These bitches aren't even "Depressed" they are simply selfish.

Seems to me that you, like many pro-lifers, have difficulty treating the woman with equal respect as you do the life inside of her. It's the biggest point of hypocrisy that can be pointed out with the usual arguments. You have no regard for the woman yet have all the regard for the fetus, regardless of its stage of development.

I didn't put a bullet in her head, I argue, that I have shown her far more respect than the child she aborted at 8 months....

Are you also against abortion in all cases? Such as rape, therapeutic purposes, etc.?

No.

Real health issues I am all for the woman's survival. Rape I am torn on. To me, there are two victims here. to me its a real tragedy.

WTH is "therapeutic purposes"? You mean like to aleviate some discomfort or something?

DeeJayH · Jun 2, 2009

Orius said:
I just think calling them bitches is unwarranted, when you don't even know the circumstances or the stories for why an abortion is being sought. This is my problem with the adament pro-life crowd... they think they know better than everyone else, using their blanket statements.

LOL and here I thought you were upset with the Good Rev's suggestion they should off themselves :lamo
not that he referred to these irresponsible women as bitches :2rofll:

DeeJayH · Jun 2, 2009

how convenient that they had to combine two answers in this 'one answer'

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation

is the first 2% and the later 69%?

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

DeeJayH said:
LOL and here I thought you were upset with the Good Rev's suggestion they should off themselves :lamo
not that he referred to these irresponsible women as bitches :2rofll:

:mrgreen: well he IS *pro-choice*

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

* 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation

Also this is an ambiguous statistic.

This needs to be divided.

Orion · Jun 2, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Let me be clear. The bitches I am refering to are the whiney "Depressed" ones who have an elective late term abortion where no ones life is threatened.

It's your choice to call them bitches... just know that it doesn't help you to look too educated on the subject.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
As for your statistics, I call BS on "74%" of those 420 women. I don't believe them.

You asked for a link and I provided it. Don't change the goalposts. If you have counter evidence in the form of a link that challenges that number, then please post it.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
And finding out late is not an excuse to kill for convienence either. These bitches aren't even "Depressed" they are simply selfish.

I'm not sure what you expect me to say to this. Your belief is your belief.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Real health issues I am all for the woman's survival. Rape I am torn on. To me, there are two victims here. to me its a real tragedy.

So it's "murder" until it's for the woman's survival, or maybe because of the morality surrounding her rape. Unbelievable.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
WTH is "therapeutic purposes"? You mean like to aleviate some discomfort or something?

Therapeutic abortion is the real medical term for abortion to save the woman's life.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Orius said:
It's your choice to call them bitches... just know that it doesn't help you to look too educated on the subject.

I didn't insult you. But I can. How do you want to proceed? Please let me know. :2wave:

You asked for a link and I provided it. Don't change the goalposts. If you have counter evidence in the form of a link that challenges that number, then please post it.

No goalposts moved. I think the women are full of **** and you statistic ambiguous as it contains two separate conditions to arrive at 74%

Even if true, it does not change the fact that these women are practicing birth control with vialbefetuses aka human beings.

I'm not sure what you expect me to say to this. Your belief is your belief.

"My God Reverend, you are so right!"

That would be the best response.

So it's "murder" until it's for the woman's survival, or maybe because of the morality surrounding her rape. Unbelievable.

It's called "Triage" The woman's life is in peril.

My wife is due any day. One of the questions they ask is if it comes down to it, who's life would I choose to save.

It's would be a horrendous choice, but a choice one would have to make.

As for Rape, I would concede, that this would be a mental trauma on the mother, that, would be regrettable but understandable. Again not late term. A rape victim shouldn't not be getting tested right away.

Therapeutic abortion is the real medical term for abortion to save the woman's life.

Then you were being redundant?

Orion · Jun 2, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I didn't insult you. But I can. How do you want to proceed? Please let me know. :2wave:

Since when has what someone else wanted stopped you from insulting them? :roll:

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
No goalposts moved. I think the women are full of **** and you statistic ambiguous as it contains two separate conditions to arrive at 74%

Then the onus is on you to prove it wrong. You asked me for a link and it was provided. What you "think" is not counter-evidence.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Even if true, it does not change the fact that these women are practicing birth control with vialbefetuses aka human beings.

You'll get no argument from me... but you asked me for the link, now you are upset with the information? That's not really my problem. Next time don't ask for what you don't want to know.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
It's called "Triage" The woman's life is in peril.

Triage is not the same as something that is therapeutic. Triage is in an emergency situation that requires immediate resolution, such as a pregnant woman being in a car accident, suffering from internal bleeding, and in order to repair that bleeding it will involve aborting the fetus. Not all therapeutic abortions fall under this category. Many of them qualify as necessary due to eventual circumstances, even though the woman is currently in stable condition.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
My wife is due any day. One of the questions they ask is if it comes down to it, who's life would I choose to save.

I'm assuming you value this choice. There are nations on this earth who are anti-abortion across the board. The mother will die and so will the baby. So clearly, you are not universally pro-life... there are circumstances where "murder" is acceptable to you.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
It's would be a horrendous choice, but a choice one would have to make.

And one that you currently have the luxury of making.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
As for Rape, I would concede, that this would be a mental trauma on the mother, that, would be regrettable but understandable. Again not late term. A rape victim shouldn't not be getting tested right away.

So certain forms of morality can override what you believe to be "murder". I mean, the mother's life is not in jeopardy, so what is the purpose of "killing" the fetus? This is one point that a lot of pro-lifers cannot seem to reconcile.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Then you were being redundant?

You asked me what the term meant.

RedAkston · Jun 2, 2009

I see this thread is going to be a train wreck just like the other one.

alexa · Jun 2, 2009

Well I don't understand the reason for late term abortions unless it is due to some medical difficulty with either mother or fetus.

We only allow abortions after 24 weeks here on those conditions.

However, apart from finding a headline that he was a 'famed late term abortionist' I haven't been able to find out what proportion of his abortions were this and what the reason for them was.

Regardless of what he did if it was within the confines of the law the way to change that is to work to change the law not to murder a man in his church or anywhere else.

I cannot see how anyone can be respecting life if they are approving murder.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 2, 2009

Orius said:
Since when has what someone else wanted stopped you from insulting them? :roll:

You get what you give. You usually are civil to me, I was simply giving you an opportunity to curb your ire before we played some brinkmanship.

Then the onus is on you to prove it wrong. You asked me for a link and it was provided. What you "think" is not counter-evidence.

The information is ambigous. I don't accept it, unless you can break down the 74% into the two reasons mentioned.

Furthermore it's irrellevant. Finding out late cause you likey the donuts is not an excuse to use death as a form of birth control.

You'll get no argument from me... but you asked me for the link, now you are upset with the information? That's not really my problem. Next time don't ask for what you don't want to know.

What you posted did not answer the question. Again, I reject the information as ambiguous. And again, even if proven it's irrellevant.

Triage is not the same as something that is therapeutic. Triage is in an emergency situation that requires immediate resolution, such as a pregnant woman being in a car accident, suffering from internal bleeding, and in order to repair that bleeding it will involve aborting the fetus. Not all therapeutic abortions fall under this category. Many of them qualify as necessary due to eventual circumstances, even though the woman is currently in stable condition.

Like for example?

I'm assuming you value this choice. There are nations on this earth who are anti-abortion across the board. The mother will die and so will the baby. So clearly, you are not universally pro-life... there are circumstances where "murder" is acceptable to you.

Never claimed I was. Abortion as contraceptive to me is murder, should be illegal. Health of the mother, whether physical, or extreme duress due to rape (early term), to me would not be murder but a most unfortunate medical situation.

And one that you currently have the luxury of making.

What are we arguing here?

So certain forms of morality can override what you believe to be "murder". I mean, the mother's life is not in jeopardy, so what is the purpose of "killing" the fetus? This is one point that a lot of pro-lifers cannot seem to reconcile.

As I said before, I would compromise at 8 weeks with the pro-abortion crowd. Same with rape victims.

Both sexually active women who don't use birth control, and rape victims, should be aware well before 8 weeks.

You asked me what the term meant.

But you used that term and its meaning in the same sentence. no biggie.

Tucker Case · Jun 2, 2009

The real problem, IMO, is Doe vs. Bolton which set up the situation where late term abortions could be given for very questionable reasons due to vague language.

I think that late term abortions in life saving circumstances should be legal.

I don't think late-term abortions should be given because one "didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation".

To me that is way too weak of an excuse.

Just Desserts

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon

winston53660

DeeJayH

RedAkston

Master of Shenanigans

DeeJayH

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

Oftencold

Oftencold

Orion

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

Orion

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

DeeJayH

DeeJayH

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

Orion

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

Orion

RedAkston

Master of Shenanigans

alexa

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3