When does Motherhood Start? - Page 3

Gladiator · 05-24-08, 06:58 AM

Dear Bodhisattva,

I think the question of the start of Motherhood puts parenting into perspective.

Why don't you summarize your postion on Abortion, in relation to the efficacy of Motherhood?

I have tried to answer your questions as I understood the questions.

Are you Anti-Choice? I am Pro-Choice. Perhaps we disagree on the main issue.

..

prometeus · 05-24-08, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Motherhood starts the instant that you are impregnated.
This is a serious no-brainer.

Quote:

You are differentiating between a mindset and a reality.

Interesting, considering that the instant you are talking about is NOT known, thus it can only be presumed or a mind set, less one can be a mother and not know about it.
Which begs the question: On what grounds do yo level the hypocrisy accusation? At least Gladiator reasoned the position, whereas you declared it a no-brainer. Yea, I can see the thought process that went into that...

prometeus · 05-24-08, 08:58 AM

Perhaps we should ask first what makes a person a parent? Clearly there are differences between the women and men, but since a child is the product of two, defining them as parents must coincide both in criteria and timing.

Bodhisattva · 05-24-08, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator

Dear Bodhisattva,

I think the question of the start of Motherhood puts parenting into perspective.

Why don't you summarize your postion on Abortion, in relation to the efficacy of Motherhood?

I have tried to answer your questions as I understood the questions.

Are you Anti-Choice? I am Pro-Choice. Perhaps we disagree on the main issue.

..

How in the world does my stance on Abortion have anything to do with when I feel Motherhood starts? LOL!

C'mon Gladiator!

Seriously now... a mother becomes a mother when the egg is fertalized and the new life begins. That is the reality. I am answering "When does Motherhood Start?" guys... I am not answering "When does life begin"

.

moth·er·hood Audio Help /ˈmʌðərˌhʊd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muhth-er-hood] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the state of being a mother; maternity. (The Reality)
2. the qualities or spirit of a mother. (The Mind-Set)
3. mothers collectively.

motherhood - Definitions from Dictionary.com

moth·er Audio Help /ˈmʌðər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muhth-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
to be the mother of; give origin or rise to.

mother - Definitions from Dictionary.com

The mind-set of becoming a mother starts whenever the woman decides to feel like a mother. Some mothers never step into motherhood and some are ready from the day the idea of having a baby dawns on them.

Life begins when life begins. That is a different debate. Whenever that moments is that an egg is fertalized and life begins its cycle is the moment that a mother enters into motherhood... that is the reality.

prometeus, The hypocrisy accusation is fairly evident to anybody with minor reasoning skills. Go back and re-read it and figure it out for yourself. If you are still troubled, I will explain it to you.

You two seem extremely lost, to be honest. Perhaps you should both go back and look at who said what and about what so that you are able to understand what it is that we are talking about, for you both seem to be trying to take this conversation down paths that are not necessary.

Are either of you mothers, or for that matter, do you have kids? It is not mandatory in order to answer the question in the OP, but it certainly helps a person due to their experience.

prometeus · 05-24-08, 08:24 PM

Bodhisattva,

I believe I have fair reasoning skills and still fail to see the validity of your accusation, so why don't you explain as offered?

Yes, I do have two grown children and I assure you that I am not lost, I also know when I became a father and when my wife became a mother. My wife and I love our children very much, always did and always will, not only instinctualy as parents, but for the joy they brought to us and continue to do so. That however does not change at all my view on your "no-brainer" assertion.
On the contrary, your continued assertion is convincing me that you either do not understand what motherhood is, or are being deliberately obtuse and combative. In my previous post I specifically raised the the issue of "what makes a parent?" in an attempt to underscore the complexity of the notion that seems so simple to you.
As I mentioned this before, at least Gladiator offered in his post reasoning, which you still did not.

On the chance that you did not think it through, let me ask you these questions:

In the case of an egg fertilized in a lab who is the mother? The donor of the egg or the woman who will be implanted with the fertilized egg? what if the egg is not implanted? What if the egg does not implant but is eliminated as so many are, was the woman a mother without even knowing it? What is a woman who raises an infant just a few days old and loves that child as if she gave birth to it? What about a father? If a mother "becomes" one at the same time a man has to become one too. The same questions apply. Does a sperm donor become a father too?

DarkWizard12 · 05-24-08, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prometeus

Bodhisattva,

I believe I have fair reasoning skills and still fail to see the validity of your accusation, so why don't you explain as offered?

Yes, I do have two grown children and I assure you that I am not lost, I also know when I became a father and when my wife became a mother. My wife and I love our children very much, always did and always will, not only instinctualy as parents, but for the joy they brought to us and continue to do so. That however does not change at all my view on your "no-brainer" assertion.
On the contrary, your continued assertion is convincing me that you either do not understand what motherhood is, or are being deliberately obtuse and combative. In my previous post I specifically raised the the issue of "what makes a parent?" in an attempt to underscore the complexity of the notion that seems so simple to you.
As I mentioned this before, at least Gladiator offered in his post reasoning, which you still did not.

On the chance that you did not think it through, let me ask you these questions:

In the case of an egg fertilized in a lab who is the mother? The donor of the egg or the woman who will be implanted with the fertilized egg? what if the egg is not implanted? What if the egg does not implant but is eliminated as so many are, was the woman a mother without even knowing it? What is a woman who raises an infant just a few days old and loves that child as if she gave birth to it? What about a father? If a mother "becomes" one at the same time a man has to become one too. The same questions apply. Does a sperm donor become a father too?

I think we are missing the most basic of all human developement.

Lets forget about when life begins
lets forget about when motherhood starts.
lets ask, when does PARENTHOOD start?

You see, the question "when does motherhood start" is a very SLY one indeed, because one attempt to answer the question means that one CONCEDES that motherhood happens at a different stage than FATHERHOOD. It has always been the most fundamental of our society that you can't have fatherhood without motherhood, and you can;t have motherhood without fatherhood; and when successfully put together, you have parenthood.

So, I cannot, nor should any of you, attempt to answer the OP question. Instead, the OP must answer this, when does parenthood start?

Bodhisattva · 05-24-08, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prometeus

Bodhisattva,

I believe I have fair reasoning skills and still fail to see the validity of your accusation, so why don't you explain as offered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator
Why is it important for you to impose your opinion about Motherhood on others?

Originally Posted by Gladiator
I think it is important to relaize that motherhood begins well before conception

That's why.

He wants to know why I am "imposing" my opinion on others while it is in fact he that is doing it. Also, I am not "imposing" anything, I am simply stating my opinion and having you two challenge it, it is you two that are trying to "impose" your opinions on me.

I merely stated an opinion and now I have the two of you challenging me and trying to tell me I, and the English Language, are wrong in your nebulous manner.

Quote:

Yes, I do have two grown children and I assure you that I am not last, I also know when I became a father and when my wife became a mother. My wife and I love our children very much, always did and always will, not only instinctualy as parents, but for the joy they brought to us and continue to do so. That however does not change at all my view on your "no-brainer" assertion.

So you want to argue "At Birth" or something? Fine.
I am not arguing about abortion or anything else... I am simply using the English Language Definitions and agreeing with them.

I have no idea what your reasoning is for debating what I am talking about, since you seem to want to debate the Language and make some point even though you are vague about what it is.

Quote:

On the contrary, your continued assertion is convincing me that you either do not understand what motherhood is, or are being deliberately obtuse and combative. In my previous post I specifically raised the the issue of "what makes a parent?" in an attempt to underscore the complexity of the notion that seems so simple to you.

moth·er·hood Audio Help /ˈmʌðərˌhʊd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muhth-er-hood] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the state of being a mother; maternity.
2. the qualities or spirit of a mother.
3. mothers collectively.

moth·er Audio Help /ˈmʌðər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muhth-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
to be the mother of; give origin or rise to.

Looks pretty simple to me. What are you having trouble with?
I suggest you brush up on the Four Noble Truths sometime soon.

Obtuse? That is you and your vague debating style saying anything other than what you mean in an effort to hopefully prove both Bodi, and the English Language wrong.

Quote:

As I mentioned this before, at least Gladiator offered in his post reasoning, which you still did not.

Sure I did. Perhaps you failed to see it just like you failed to see the hypocrisy of what Gladiator did.

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On the chance that you did not think it through, let me ask you these questions:

Oh, I have thought it through. It takes a mere minute or so.

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In the case of an egg fertilized in a lab who is the mother?

What about if a wolf egg is implanted inside a woman by some surgical mistake and she raises the pup and loves it like her other kids?

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The donor of the egg or the woman who will be implanted with the fertilized egg?

Who is being obtuse here again? You want a universal answer to something that is ridiculous. We are talking about normal "motherhood" here, at least I am. Each situation will have an independent answer with yours.

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what if the egg is not implanted?

What?

Quote:

What if the egg does not implant but is eliminated as so many are, was the woman a mother without even knowing it?

That is called a miscarraige and the mother was a mother for that time period.

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What is a woman who raises an infant just a few days old and loves that child as if she gave birth to it?

A non-biological mother in reality and a mother in mind-set.

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What about a father?

Now you want fathers to be considered mothers? LOL!

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If a mother "becomes" one at the same time a man has to become one too. The same questions apply.

This is true.

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Does a sperm donor become a father too?

Technically Yes. Sadly he won't know his child though, will he? I also think that calling a guy like that a father is a stretch and demeaning to fathers like you and me... he is more like a delivery guy.

jallman · 05-24-08, 09:46 PM

Motherhood starts the exact moment the woman perceives her pregnancy as a person and not a medical condition.

Bodhisattva · 05-24-08, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Motherhood starts the exact moment the woman perceives her pregnancy as a person and not a medical condition.

So you say it is a mind-set then?

jallman · 05-24-08, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

So you say it is a mind-set then?

I would say so. However, it is very loosely defined in the Unborn Victims of Violence act. The woman confers personhood to her fetus with her intent to gestate. I'd say that goes hand in hand with her agreement to "motherhood" versus her just having the condition of pregnancy.