Do you wish the abortion argument would go away? - Page 16

Jerry · 06-06-08, 03:04 PM

I find this thread ironic, that a wish for the argument to go away only makes it grow.

kamino · 07-14-08, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

Should pro-lifers ever "win" the culture war on abortion, we will still not have peace. We will just be subjected to more protests about contraception.

"Pro-Lifers" Protest Contraception | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet

"Pro-Lifers" Protest Contraception

By Cristina Page, RH Reality Check. Posted May 6, 2008.

Birth control is the best way to lower the abortion rate. So why are anti-choicers rallying against it and claiming that "the pill kills babies"?

Tired of the same-old lame protests outside of abortion clinics? Looking to impose your religious beliefs in other people's lives in a new and exciting way? The pro-life movement would like to expand your horizons.

On June 7th, the anniversary of the Supreme Court decision that gave married people the right to use contraception, the American Life League, along with Pro-Life Wisconsin and Pharmacists for Life International Associate groups want you to join them in protesting in front of facilities that distribute birth control products. The national day against contraception, Protest the Pill Day '08: The Pill Kills Babies, was started to convince the American people of a simple and imaginative idea: attempting to prevent abortion is abortion too. These arguments have been confounded by diabolical scientists and experts who insistently point out there's no evidence to support that the birth control pill works the way these groups claim. As we all know, however, if ideology waited for science to prove scientific points, our ancestors would have never have spent all those years wandering the then-flat earth....

And before you despair that your right to privacy is being lost, take comfort in the knowledge that once we all finally live in a country where ideology is valued over evidence and our government is run by and for those who subscribe, or succumb, to the exciting agenda of these groups ... privacy will no longer be needed. Your point of view and way of life will, conveniently, be decided for you. So what are you waiting for?! Sign up now!"

who cares?

Marilyn Monroe · 07-14-08, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegyptos

Until Roe vs Wade, abortion was recognized as a state matter.

I don't find that there is a right to abortion in the Constitution, not in the Bill of Rights or the amendments.

It's a right to privacy, and this would fall in there somewhere.

Before too much longer the Roberts Court will pin down why Roe vs Wade is bad law and throw it out and with it the federal role in abortion. So much for the penumbras and emanations the left so loves.

Hopefully Roberts is smarter than that. All hell will break loose if abortion is decided to be a bad law by the Supreme Court. To keep this country calm they need to keep it a federal law, and that's it. It's been around too long to change, it would be a disaster.

See this:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy

Quote:

The Right To Privacy

The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.

talloulou · 07-14-08, 12:11 PM

If there's some vague right to privacy that protects abortion I can't imagine what wouldn't be protected under such an ambiguous heading. Talk about flimsy...

Marilyn Monroe · 07-14-08, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

If there's some vague right to privacy that protects abortion I can't imagine what wouldn't be protected under such an ambiguous heading. Talk about flimsy...

I think the privacy lies in the fact that a woman has a right to make a decision about her own body, and the government has no right to tell her what she can do in this instance.

http://atheism.about.com/library/dec...ec_RoeWade.htm

This shows what the Supreme Court actually said about it.

talloulou · 07-14-08, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marilyn Monroe

I think the privacy lies in the fact that a woman has a right to make a decision about her own body, and the government has no right to tell her what she can do in this instance.

Supreme Court Decision on Privacy & Abortion: Roe v. Wade

This shows what the Supreme Court actually said about it.

If that same level of privacy doesn't protect suicide, euthanasia, drug use, prostitution, and sex changes then it's laughable that it protects abortion.

Scucca · 07-21-08, 06:00 PM

The abortion argument does go away, via the wonders of liberalism. For example, consider Arisi (2003, Changing attitudes towards abortion in Europe, The European Journal of Contraception and Reproductive Health Care, Vol 8, pp 109-121):

Abortion has been commonly practiced for a long time throughout most of the world, either in legal or illegal conditions, but it is a subject that arouses passion and controversy, because abortion raises two important issues, namely sex and life, sometimes mixed with religion and ethics. Over the past few years, we have observed changes in laws, and personal and professional attitudes towards abortion. Social needs modify the attitudes of the authorities and individuals. In many countries where the performance of abortion is illegal, statistics indicate that large numbers of abortions are carried out, but authorities are indifferent, ignore or tolerate it or even unofficially license clinics for the abortion. In some other countries where abortion is technically legal, access to authorized facilities and personnel may be limited, or resources to pay for the abortion may be lacking, resulting in more illegal abortions. There are, therefore, two categories of abortion: legal versus illegal, and safe versus unsafe. However, laws are changing, becoming even more liberal, even if, in certain nations, there are renewed attempts to question the right of women to decide. Practice is changing and in some cases becoming separate from the law. Basic ideas are changing, because, in a large number of European countries, we are moving from a culture of abortion to a culture of contraception and prevention of abortion, through an effort of governments, women, professionals, and non-governmental organizations. Certainly, important steps have been taken in the different ways of performing an abortion. For example, we have seen the arrival of medical abortion, with the use of mifepristone and misoprostol. Finally, there is also a change in the way of supporting women through humane and complete counseling, which includes attention to follow-up services offering a choice of contraceptive methods to help women avoid another unwanted pregnancy.

We see the pro-life movement for what they are: backward thinkers that stunt liberalism and the development of a "culture of contraception and prevention of abortion". They foam at the mouth nicely though

Bodhisattva · 07-21-08, 08:13 PM

I don't wish that the argument, or debate, would go away...
I simply wish that people would stop being assholes to those that don't agree with them.

talloulou · 07-21-08, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scucca

The abortion argument does go away, via the wonders of liberalism. For example, consider Arisi (2003, Changing attitudes towards abortion in Europe, The European Journal of Contraception and Reproductive Health Care, Vol 8, pp 109-121):

[i]Abortion has been commonly practiced for a long time throughout most of the world...

Same with rape, murder, incest, stealing, etc...

The fact that something commonly occurs is no reason to embrace it.

Quote:

. In many countries where the performance of abortion is illegal, statistics indicate that large numbers of abortions are carried out, but authorities are indifferent, ignore or tolerate it or even unofficially license clinics for the abortion.

Again there are countries where rape, incest, wife beating, etc run rampant and the authorities pretty much turn a blind eye.

So??

Quote:

We see the pro-life movement for what they are: backward thinkers

I don't believe a mother should have the right to decide if her offspring lives or dies via abortion. Call me backwards.

prometeus · 07-21-08, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

Same with rape, murder, incest, stealing, etc...

The fact that something commonly occurs is no reason to embrace it.

That is true, but abortion is NOT being embraced. Overall when something that is not desirable is occurring in society, sometimes laws against it solve that problem. Many times laws are not the solution. In the case of abortion that has been proven beyond argument. Genuine concern and honest approach without condemnation and practical solutions can on the other have have a vastly significant effect on the number of abortions, by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. That has also been proven.