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Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments.

As an ancillary, if you believe it is a right, is the right to an abortion a positive or negative right. That is, does the government have an obligation to make sure you are able to get an abortion, or only does not have the right to prevent it?

1: Governments have no rights. Just powers. Powers that We The People grant them, or not. And it doesn't matter what country/government you are talking about. If the People really wanted to they could make the government change. As to your question in this post, the government should only make sure that it is not prevented. That is the governments ultimate job, to make sure peoples rights are not taken from them.

2: Whether or not abortion is moral is completely subjective. Every single person will have a different view of it from another person. With varying shades of how right or wrong it is. On a personal level I believe it is wrong and if I were a woman would never have one. Probably even if my life depended on it. Why? Because to me that ZEF is a person pure and simple.

3: Yes, it should be legal. Why? Because no one has a right to tell another person how to live their life. Part of a persons life is in how they view things. In this case it is not up to you or me to tell a person, or force a person, to believe that a ZEF is a person. Nor do we have a right to tell a person what they can or cannot do with their body.
 
I do not, nor did I make any reference or implied gender.

"The decision is yours and yours alone." It is only "yours", if you are female.
 
You talk about somebody using another's body for life support against her will. What you aren't sayin is that this somebody wouldn't even exist if not for the choice of his or her mother. That fetus didn't simply spring into a woman's uterus to assault her; he or she was created through his or her mother's choice. And the fetus's only crime is having been created through no fault or choice of his/her own.

It may not have been the mothers intention to get pregnant also. Which means that her choice was taken from her via accident...or rape. For instance, The Pill is not 100.00% effective. Neither is the condom. Even when combined there is still a chance of getting pregnant, albeit a small one. But it can still happen. I know that for a fact since I have a sister in-law that has had two kids despite having protected sex via condom and the pill in one case, and a condom and IUD in the other case.

Of course then you can just argue that "well, maybe she should have kept her legs closed!" or some variation thereof. But then that just denies human nature. Abstinence programs have been shown to be a complete failure.
 
"The decision is yours and yours alone." It is only "yours", if you are female.
No, the decision on where one stands on abortion is gender neutral. The question was not whether to have or not to have an abortion.
 
For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.



Hi, Beachdoc. Didin't know you were on DP... long time no see. How's things?
 
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For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

Why do you assume that the mother's obligation to her fetus is any different than her obligation to a stranger?

I view the debate in terms of balancing of rights. If you assume that the fetus is not a person the analysis ends as non-persons do not have rights. If you assume personhood then the rights balancing in my view tilts overwhelmingly to the mother, at least initially. I do not see where the mother has a any obligation to the fetus, no obligation for her sustain or protect the fetus, or at least no more obligation that she would have to sustain or protect any other person in society.

If the woman lets the pregnancy continue to some (debatable) point the balance shifts towards the fetus and the woman does have an obligation to sustain and protect it.
 
You talk about somebody using another's body for life support against her will. What you aren't sayin is that this somebody wouldn't even exist if not for the choice of his or her mother. That fetus didn't simply spring into a woman's uterus to assault her; he or she was created through his or her mother's choice. And the fetus's only crime is having been created through no fault or choice of his/her own.

Irrelevant. When smokers get lung cancer through their own actions, we don't say they can't have the tumour(s) removed from their bodies. When some gets drunk and drives and crashes, we don't bar them from getting their injuries treated. etc, etc. The person's actions causing something does not mean they can't remedy the problems that ensue.
 
A fetus is not a tumor.
 
Why do you assume that the mother's obligation to her fetus is any different than her obligation to a stranger?

I view the debate in terms of balancing of rights. If you assume that the fetus is not a person the analysis ends as non-persons do not have rights. If you assume personhood then the rights balancing in my view tilts overwhelmingly to the mother, at least initially. I do not see where the mother has a any obligation to the fetus, no obligation for her sustain or protect the fetus, or at least no more obligation that she would have to sustain or protect any other person in society.

If the woman lets the pregnancy continue to some (debatable) point the balance shifts towards the fetus and the woman does have an obligation to sustain and protect it.
Is there any obligation to the father?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
A fetus is not a tumor.

neither is it a child

while I understand your point, to me the rights of the child that will ensue after birth trump that of the fetus

therefore there can be no child forced upon another until those who wish to do the forcing take full and complete responsibility for that child

that is the moral dilemma one must be willing to overcome

most pro birth are surprisingly unwilling to do so

therefore it is a moot issue
 
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For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

Clicky here - then clicky the link in the OP ---> http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/147687-carl-sagan-abortion-debate-scientific-view.html
 
neither is it a child

while I understand your point, to me the rights of the child that will ensue after birth trump that of the fetus

therefore there can be no child forced upon another until those who wish to do the forcing take full and complete responsibility for that child

that is the moral dilemma one must be willing to overcome

most pro birth are surprisingly unwilling to do so

therefore it is a moot issue

Interestingly most prochoicers are no better in that they want to force the finacial burden on somebody else.they complain that you cant force the woman into an obligation she does not want but advocate putting men in jail who make the same argument

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
It may not have been the mothers intention to get pregnant also. Which means that her choice was taken from her via accident...or rape. For instance, The Pill is not 100.00% effective. Neither is the condom. Even when combined there is still a chance of getting pregnant, albeit a small one. But it can still happen. I know that for a fact since I have a sister in-law that has had two kids despite having protected sex via condom and the pill in one case, and a condom and IUD in the other case.

Of course then you can just argue that "well, maybe she should have kept her legs closed!" or some variation thereof. But then that just denies human nature. Abstinence programs have been shown to be a complete failure.

What is the percent of elective abortions performed because of rape? Somewhere between 1 and 3%?
 
What is the percent of elective abortions performed because of rape? Somewhere between 1 and 3%?

I mentioned rape once as an aside. Your post focused on the woman making a choice to have sex and as such bearing the responsibility of that choice. My post was meant to show that a woman having sex does not automatically mean that she made a choice to become pregnant. Do you agree or disagree with this?
 
For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

I've always seen it as a kind of rock in the road that will never give; no matter what happens with one side or the other and how the law falls at the time: the genie is out of the bottle.

I don't like the religious right's version, as I see it only as only a means of persecution in order to justify the Bible, which is the mission of the evangelicals. I don't like the birth control angle either, but then again I don't like war, so what are my chances on a vote to end war... I don't talk about the medical end of it as a life saver because that's only obvious when it has to be done.

I also don't think that you're obligated to come down on one side or the other. You do what you feel is the right thing to do at the time.
 
You talk about somebody using another's body for life support against her will. What you aren't sayin is that this somebody wouldn't even exist if not for the choice of his or her mother. That fetus didn't simply spring into a woman's uterus to assault her; he or she was created through his or her mother's choice. And the fetus's only crime is having been created through no fault or choice of his/her own.

That fetus was created through the chance of pregnancy... If something goes wrong, it's sort of up to her. I don't like it one way or another: the fetus is like an apple on the tree, and some don't make it. Life is a very big thing and trying to pigeon hole it is only folly.
 
I also don't think that you're obligated to come down on one side or the other.

Individuals are free to "come down on one side or the other". The problem starts when one group tries to make laws and punish everyone else based on their side and their side alone.

That's why "choice" is the only side that should win for society as a whole.

As has been stated thousands of times now, most pro-choice people always chose life.

Pro-life people should stop trying to outlaw abortion, and their energy and focus should be on preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Birth control. Sex education. Health insurance coverage for birth control. Free birth control. Easy access to birth control. That kind of thing.
Which by the way, is proving that it works.
 
For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

In your analogy, the homeless person is capable of life outside your house. The unborn child is not capable of survival outside the whom even if it is born healthy and happy.

To any thinking person, the unborn child is at minimum a potential human. Every mother I know says that her babies had personalities both after they were born and BEFORE. Those who say this is not a decision about a person are being less than honest.

IF you are trying to reduce this to a purely personal level, then there is not a good justification for the abortion of a healthy unborn by a healthy mother assuming no other issues UNLESS the unborn is defined as being UN-human.

HOWEVER, this is not a purely personal issue because we live in a society. On the societal level, the government has pretty much washed its hands of the responsibility for the care of unwanted children with the Roe v Wade decision.

The government has laid this responsibility at the feet of the woman who will give birth and must provide care for the rest of the kid's life. This is not a great solution, but it is what we have. To make this a less messy process, the decision on the disposition of the unborn is left to the person who will provide care for the remainder of her life to the unborn. Or not.

The morality of abortion on a personal level and the real world workability of a prohibition on abortion are not in any important way connected in a legal sense.

Legalized Abortion is an adjudicated solution to the SOCIETAL side of this issue. As a doctor charged to help in this, you are only a tool in the collective hand of the society. You happen to be in the room when the procedure occurs, but as a member of society, are as complicit whether you are there or somewhere else.

Legally, I think, your only responsibility is the life and health of the mother. Morally, I think, your only responsibility is to yourself. Societally, there are various jobs done by some for others that are not enjoyable. Necessary is not always pleasant.

I don't envy your decision on this any more than that made by the mothers you serve.
 
For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

In my opinion abortion is sometimes the correct choice. If it comes down to the life of the unborn or the life of the mother, I cannot pass judgment on any woman who chooses her life over the uncertain. And that becomes even more important if there are others who depend on her for their own well being. I won't presume to judge any woman who agonizes over the choice of allowing the unborn who has no chance for quality of life to end that life early thus sparing her child unbearable suffering. I won't presume the judge the woman carrying multiple babies who chooses to end the pregnancy for some in order to allow a better chance to survive for the others. And I won't presume to play God and judge any woman who is dealing with a pregnancy resulting from rape. And I will honor the choice of any woman who chooses the life of her unborn baby over her own welfare or other considerations.

It is difficult to see aborting a new life purely because that life is unwanted or inconvenient as okay. But again, none of us are given God's powers to judge.

I prefer to leave it to the states and local communities to establish whatever laws fit the social contract based on the values and convictions of the people in those states and communities. If it were left up to me to decide, I would follow the Roe v Wade guidelines--the first three months of the pregnancy are between the woman and her doctor but no doctor should be forced to perform an abortion against his/her moral principles. In the second trimester, the state has some interest in a non-medically necessitated abortion. And in the third trimester the state has a great deal of interest in that unborn life and it should be ended only when it is absolutely medically indicated as necessary.

I do think the issue should be a state and/or local community issue. I strongly feel that our Constitution gives the federal government and the Supreme Court no jurisdiction or authority to dictate what the law will be on this.
 
Individuals are free to "come down on one side or the other". The problem starts when one group tries to make laws and punish everyone else based on their side and their side alone.

That's why "choice" is the only side that should win for society as a whole.

As has been stated thousands of times now, most pro-choice people always chose life.

Pro-life people should stop trying to outlaw abortion, and their energy and focus should be on preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Birth control. Sex education. Health insurance coverage for birth control. Free birth control. Easy access to birth control. That kind of thing.
Which by the way, is proving that it works.

People can do whatever they want. My philosophy on the abortion matter though is, if you're on the fence stay there, so that you don't get pulled into the emotional quicksand of the opposite sides. Do what your gut tells you to do at the given moment, and maybe later you'll take a lean; but an informed lean.
 
If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

This isn't a subject you'll get an intelligent, reasonable, or rational response to. I'm sure you've discovered that already, though.
 
For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability...My analogy I had used assumed a stranger.

Actually your analogy refers to a trespasser, i.e. an interloper interfering with one's person or property. A trespasser does not have to be a stranger, it can be anyone known or unknown to you who interferes with your person or property.

In a state of nature, the individual will act as they so choose in how to deal with such an interloper. The law (a social construct) merely recognizes and supports this right of individual action by setting parameters to prevent unnecessary harms.

Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

Now here we get into semantics, since both terms have various definitions depending on the user's viewpoint.

To some, "Mother" refers to the female whose egg was used to conceive, whose body was used to give birth, and who then raised the child so conceived. But that's a bit hazy since we currently have forms of surrogate which mix this process up, not to mention usage in adoption.

In biological terms, the word "Child" refers to a human being after birth (when childhood starts) but before puberty (when adulthood starts). Socially the term applies to persons born to, or adopted by one or more adults who identify themselves as parents.

I raise this point because when you used that phrase "Mother's obligation to her child" you are clearly trying to imply a social or emotional link which colors the viewpoint; thereby obscuring a clinically objective argument. :shrug:

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, (1.)do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. (2.) Is abortion wrong? (3.) Should abortion be illegal?

In answer to the first question; YES, you need to throw out your construct in order to try to discuss the issue objectively. Otherwise your emotional haze will interfere with a rational analysis.

Instead, being an OB/GYN, you should be looking at this biologically. That childhood begins at birth; while the processes occurring between conception and birth involve phases of development leading to the potential creation of a human being. I use the term "potential" because as an OB/GYN you should be well-aware of the possibility of natural miscarriage at any stage prior to actual birth.

There is no correct answer to your second question. That is because "right and wrong" are moral choices, with few (if any) universal absolutes.

For example, to a Hindu it is morally wrong to kill any living creature, while most other cultures think it's perfectly okay to kill just about anything other than a human being if it suits our needs, while there are some belief systems unconcerned about human life. So when you ask this question, that remains an individual choice based on one's own belief system. :shrug:

The last question is key, should abortion be illegal? IMO, the answer is a resounding NO! This because using the purely biological rationale, the cells are going through several stages of development in the womb before they become a human being entitled to legal protection.

They are human cells; but they are not developed from inception with enough attributes to indicate viable individuality. This does not occur until some later point in the process. So like any other group of human cells in our fully developed bodies, they may be dealt with medically as needed or desired by the human being carrying them.

If I have cancer, you can cut it out even though they are living human cells. If I want to donate a Kidney, or part of my Liver, I can elect to do this even though they are living human cells. Women should have the right to decide what to do with this developing potential right up to the point science can determine potential has turned into actual human consciousness. At that point, this new human being deserves some protection under the law.
 
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