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The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437:480] *****

Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Humor me, explain.


But you did chime in when I asked for evidence that people equate murder with homicide. Why did you?

To divert the conversation away from these inane side topics.

But it is a legal term and you are attempting to use it as an appeal to emotion since you lack a rational argument.

Is that why you are avoiding facts and proper usage of terms?

It is a legal term, except when it isn't. Do you actually think that murder is only a legal term? Really?

Where did I do that?

In the quoted portion above where I typed that.

Well can it? It can not, so why place it on par with those who can?

Because it is human.

That valuation or lack of it is based on your subjective perspective.

A rational argument? Because drivel is not something to live by.

Yes, that is what humanity has done since its existence and still does every day. It is unfortunate that you are unable to see that or acknowledge it.

That's the same argument that has been used to justify every genocide ever.

That is your shortcoming and thus your problem.

Faulty wiring can always be corrected. An open mind and some education in this case could work for you.

Really? Where are fetuses mentioned?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

But we live in a republic not a theocracy, so their subjective opinions are not to be imposed on anyone.

Again, your problem not mine.

Funny how you dismiss theologians and ignore philosophers. Your whole post was a smattering of reasonable retorts smothered in personal attacks and condescending remarks. Try to come up with something intellectual please.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

To divert the conversation away from these inane side topics.


It is a legal term, except when it isn't. Do you actually think that murder is only a legal term? Really?

In the quoted portion above where I typed that.

Because it is human.

That's the same argument that has been used to justify every genocide ever.

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."



Funny how you dismiss theologians and ignore philosophers. Your whole post was a smattering of reasonable retorts smothered in personal attacks and condescending remarks. Try to come up with something intellectual please.

Murder is a legal term in every sense of the word and term. Nothing more or less. It's universal in its meaning. Well, with you being an exception.

The reality that we all have to live with is that in America we have been established as a nation ruled by law not theologians and philosophers.

Humans have just enough intelligence to be dangerous. Some humans define themselves as superior to all other species and have created their own creator. Some humans believe that every birth is a sacrosanct event and has a predetermined purpose and meaning. However, these beliefs are not consistent with people of various faiths. Some don't subscribe to them at all.

The Declaration of Independence was a "divorce petition". While the "endowed by our creator" segment of the DOI is inspirational - and even poetic in some ways, it was written to tell King George that despite his belief that he was appointed by god to rule over the English Empire - including America - that Americans believed that each individual was endowed with the same rights as the King. Therefore he needed to kiss off.

If you chose to value a yet to be born over the born - then good for you.

Despite every form of death that's challenged human existence - human have won and continues to thrive. There is no evidence that abortion has impacted humanity in any negative way - since the very first.
 
The woman wanting to not be pregnant is cause. Due process is being informed of the procedure, risks etc and signing the consent forms.

But you know what a person is NOT. ALLOPED. IMO I will bet you there is nowhere in our Bible that was specifics enough to allow you to perform abortions.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

I'd rather they didn't want to consider it justified.

Yes pro choicers view abortion as being justified. Some view it as necessary from a preference Unitarianism point of view. Others a ''necessary evil.''

I don't know why anyone would want to justify killing someone out of convenience, especially at such an early stage of development.

It's been done plenty of times on this site (by me also) and plenty of IRL debates I have attended.

So I'd rather not debate the definitions of words and just debate the merits of the act itself.

Eventually you want to do both if you really want to make abortion illegal. I believe there's been plenty of times you called abortion murder which in doing so, you equate species membership to personhood. Just make sure you have a argument to back that up. Ignore any appeals to current law status that happens quite a bit around here.
 
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Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Murder is a legal term in every sense of the word and term. Nothing more or less. It's universal in its meaning. Well, with you being an exception.

So if the Green Bay Packers murder the Dallas Cowboys, that will be in the legal sense? Words can have multiple meanings and multiple uses.

The reality that we all have to live with is that in America we have been established as a nation ruled by law not theologians and philosophers.

But the reality is that millions of people view the sanctity of life as sacred and worth protecting from day 1. My rebuttal was aimed at the fallacy that abortion is universally accepted.

Humans have just enough intelligence to be dangerous. Some humans define themselves as superior to all other species and have created their own creator. Some humans believe that every birth is a sacrosanct event and has a predetermined purpose and meaning. However, these beliefs are not consistent with people of various faiths. Some don't subscribe to them at all.

The Declaration of Independence was a "divorce petition". While the "endowed by our creator" segment of the DOI is inspirational - and even poetic in some ways, it was written to tell King George that despite his belief that he was appointed by god to rule over the English Empire - including America - that Americans believed that each individual was endowed with the same rights as the King. Therefore he needed to kiss off.

Your assessment is not inaccurate, but it is incomplete. If the men who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence were to use that document to justify separation from the United Kingdom, wouldn't it have to be accurate? If the document was not accurate, then the basis for their revolution would not be established.

If you chose to value a yet to be born over the born - then good for you.

Despite every form of death that's challenged human existence - human have won and continues to thrive. There is no evidence that abortion has impacted humanity in any negative way - since the very first.

And just how would you produce such evidence? How many Einsteins were killed through abortion? How could we possibly know. For all we know the next paradigm shifting super genius died in the womb. Or, in the same vane, the next Hitler died in the womb. It is impossible to know.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Yes pro choicers view abortion as being justified. Some view it as necessary from a preference Unitarianism point of view. Others a ''necessary evil.''

So you admit that at least some people that have an abortion know that what they are doing is evil?


It's been done plenty of times on this site (by me also) and plenty of IRL debates I have attended.



Eventually you want to do both if you really want to make abortion illegal. I believe there's been plenty of times you called abortion murder which in doing so, you equate species membership to personhood. Just make sure you have a argument to back that up. Ignore any appeals to current law status that happens quite a bit around here.

Of course I equate being human to person hood. How can you not?
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Was abortion even routinely done back then? This reminds me of an argument for the government of Iran to pay for sex changes - that the koran doesn't forbid it. But did sex changes even exist?
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

So if the Green Bay Packers murder the Dallas Cowboys, that will be in the legal sense? Words can have multiple meanings and multiple uses.



But the reality is that millions of people view the sanctity of life as sacred and worth protecting from day 1. My rebuttal was aimed at the fallacy that abortion is universally accepted.



Your assessment is not inaccurate, but it is incomplete. If the men who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence were to use that document to justify separation from the United Kingdom, wouldn't it have to be accurate? If the document was not accurate, then the basis for their revolution would not be established.



And just how would you produce such evidence? How many Einsteins were killed through abortion? How could we possibly know. For all we know the next paradigm shifting super genius died in the womb. Or, in the same vane, the next Hitler died in the womb. It is impossible to know.

I've already stated in my last post about the "metaphorical use" of the word or term 'murder' isn't uncommon. But nobody would see bodies laying all over the ground after the football game, would they? So common sense tells us that any person who uses a legal term like "murder" to describe some sporting event or competition event of any kind, which doesn't actually involve people or a person being murdered (suffer the loss of life by the hands of another) - is metaphorical. But what that word implies is that one football team imposed statistical harm to the other. That's not rocket science.

You had a very specific meaning in mind when you used the term 'murder' and 'abortion' in the same sentences. You were referring to an illegal form of death perpetrated by one person on another. That is simply not true. Abortion in this nation is not murder when performed within the boundaries of the law.

So when the rubber meets the road and the legal term "murder" is used to describe the act abortion, there is no metaphorical use of the word, murder, which can apply to an abortion. That would come from someone who is 100% incorrect when they use that term to describe the act of abortion. Legal factors can be involved in some situations where an actual murder is involved in the death of a fetus. Such events will fall under the Unborn Victims Act, which says that during the commission of a crime, a fetus death incurs, "it is murder".

I love being able to express opinions, don't you? And so far your comments on this topic have been more within the realm of opinion - not fact.

You can't predict, nor has anybody in the history of humankind, been able to predict what the intellect or role a future born child might grow to be. It's impossible to know. You can't assume what the future will be if something never comes into existence in the first place. It doesn't appear that we have a shortage of people who have the ability to help humanity move forward. There's no evidence of a shortage of every other possible human talent that we all benefit from.

Cloning would be one of the ultimate tests to see if a Hitler or Ted Bundy could be identically cloned to have the same behaviors as did the original. The chances of a clone of one of the most murderous of human beings ever born, being identical in mind, intellect, and behaviors is slim to none. There's more to how we come to be than just via DNA.

The "sanctity of life" or, if you prefer, the "right to life" doesn't exist within our judicial system. If it did there'd be no executions, lethal force by law enforcements, men and women sent into battle conditions, etc.

If you believe in the sanctity of life or the right to life - the don't participate in encouraging your sex partner to have an abortion...or have a relationship with a woman who believe that women should have the legal right to have abortions. It's that simple.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Legal abortion is in no way, shape or form, murder. Murder is the ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. If it's legal, it CANNOT be murder.

However, it is still a killing of a human being, regardless.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

To divert the conversation away from these inane side topics.
So you have nothing. Not surprising.

It is a legal term, except when it isn't.
Really? And you came up with that all by yourself?

Do you actually think that murder is only a legal term?
So you admit to using it as emotional drivel.

In the quoted portion above where I typed that.
Deflection.

Because it is human.
So is sperm and the crap I flushed down the toilet.

That's the same argument that has been used to justify every genocide ever.
Can you support that with anything or this is just more of your hype and emotion driven ignorance?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.
You should read it or better yet have it explained to you.

Funny how you dismiss theologians and ignore philosophers.
Because I want to live in reality free to make my own decisions free form a specific belief imposed on me.

Try to come up with something intellectual please.
Just as soon as you post something intelligent. Did not want to place undue burden on you.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Words can have multiple meanings and multiple uses.
Yes and you use it a emotional drivel in lieu or rational arguments.

But the reality is that millions of people view the sanctity of life as sacred and worth protecting from day 1.
Good, let them live by that and stay the **** out of other people's lives.

My rebuttal was aimed at the fallacy that abortion is universally accepted.
You had not rebuttal just baseless tripe.

If the men who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence
They did not give a **** about abortion and it was legal back then.

How many Einsteins were killed through abortion?
Just as many as many Stalins. Pointless speculation.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

So you admit that at least some people that have an abortion know that what they are doing is evil?
In your unqualified opinion.

Of course I equate being human to person hood. How can you not?
Takes an open mind an some education.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Moving the goalposts, eh?

No, that's wrong. I'm just bring them back to where they were moved from before. Death to a baby is a very serious matter, you know. The baby was moved from baby to non-person, then to fetus, to non viable entity to God knows what comes next.

No. I am not moving the goal posts.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Moving the goalposts, eh?

No, that's wrong. I'm just bring them back to where they were moved from before. Death to a baby is a very serious matter, you know. The baby was moved from baby to non-person, then to fetus, to non viable entity to God knows what comes next.

No. I am not moving the goal posts.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Yes and you use it a emotional drivel in lieu or rational arguments.

Good, let them live by that and stay the **** out of other people's lives.

You had not rebuttal just baseless tripe.



They did not give a **** about abortion and it was legal back then.

Just as many as many Stalins. Pointless speculation.

Sounds pointless and snippy to me. That as opposed the counter arguments of your opponent KSI Aviator.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Sounds pointless and snippy to me.
Guess what? I really do not give a crap how it sounds to you. You have something intelligent and relevant to add then go for it, otherwise you are just adding to the drivel, as usual.
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

Guess what? I really do not give a crap how it sounds to you. You have something intelligent and relevant to add then go for it, otherwise you are just adding to the drivel, as usual.


More pointless snippyness, huh?
 
Re: The bible does not condemn abortion [W:437]

One interesting tid-bit to add is that in Judaism we do not mourn the death of an unborn child. Mourning rites, kaddish, and sitting shiva are reserved for fully animate human beings, and we do not treat the embryo as having that status.
 
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