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Life in the womb[W;94]

Re: Life in the womb

Removable Mind said:
I agree that abortion will always exist, no matter what the law states.

However...I'm a little confused.

Are you stating that all abortions are performed because of a health issue? Or that part of those performed are because of health issues?

Abortion, in and of itself is a personal rights issue. Abortions should be defined, by law, as a legal medical procedure.

Those who use religious tenets as an instrument to decide whether or not they would have a medical procedure called abortion...is also a personal issue.

Some women do have to have abortions because of physical reasons. Some might suffer life long health problems if they don't have an abortion. Some women might die unless they have an abortion

But "most" women have other reasons for having an abortion, which are not directly connected to their personal health.

But our society needs to make damn sure that women have their medical procedures done in the safest environment possible.
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No, I'm arguing that abortion as such for any reason is a human health issue. It's surgery, whether we are for it or agin it, that's what it is. Therefore our best bet as a society is to see to it that it stays out the streets; that's what caused the problem to begin with, and I agree with the rest of what you're saying. Well done.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
No, I'm arguing that abortion as such for any reason is a human health issue. It's surgery, whether we are for it or agin it, that's what it is. Therefore our best bet as a society is to see to it that it stays out the streets; that's what caused the problem to begin with, and I agree with the rest of what you're saying. Well done.
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I think that you and I are close. Maybe saying some of the same things in a different manner.

Jay doesn't care about the procedure itself. He deems the doctors who perform the procedures as contract killers. He's toned down. He use to call them murders. Jay's consistent position is that abortions should never happen in the first place. And if that were the case, then there would be no health issue or concerns involved.

Also Jay doesn't care if abortion was made illegal and women who chose to abort anyway, would most likely be putting their health or life at risk by going to a illegal facility or person who might not be able to ensure their health and well being. If the woman dies as a result of being force to go to such a facility, Jay doesn't care. In fact, he'd most likely tell you that he was glad she died.

But from your perspective...and the perspective of all pro-choice advocates....

The abortion itself is a medical procedure. It clearly requires medical professionals to perform these procedure to ensure the health, well being, and prevent a potential loss of life of women who have the procedure. All medical procedures, regardless of what type, should be performed in the safest environment possible. So in this sense, abortions are a health issue.

"Most" abortions performed are known as a suction aspiration procedure. The procedure can be done in a doctor's office, but usually at a clinic that only performs these type procedures. The procedure usually lasts 10-15 minutes, but recovery can require staying at the clinic for a few hours. The doctor will administer antibiotics to help prevent infection. And then the patient stays a couple of hours after the procedure if all goes well.

Thus my point: Since Jay doesn't care about the procedure itself, he'll never address the "health issues" related to such procedures.


.
 
Re: Life in the womb

Removable Mind said:
Jay doesn't care about the procedure itself. He deems the doctors who perform the procedures as contract killers. He's toned down. He use to call them murders.
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This is false.

Since coming to this forum I have always characterized these contract killings as homicides, as has been the case well before coming here.

For them to be murder they would already need to be illegal and criminalized as murder. They should be, but they are not.

Jay's consistent position is that abortions should never happen in the first place.
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Not entirely. Emergency medical triage is still a valid reason. If you cannot save both patients, save the one you can save.

Also Jay doesn't care if abortion was made illegal and women who chose to abort anyway, would most likely be putting their health or life at risk by going to a illegal facility or person who might not be able to ensure their health and well being. If the woman dies as a result of being force to go to such a facility, Jay doesn't care. In fact, he'd most likely tell you that he was glad she died.
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It is hardly a bad thing for someone who is objectively a violent killer to die as a result of their own stupidity and malice.
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
This is false.

Since coming to this forum I have always characterized these contract killings as homicides, as has been the case well before coming here.

For them to be murder they would already need to be illegal and criminalized as murder. They should be, but they are not.



Not entirely. Emergency medical triage is still a valid reason. If you cannot save both patients, save the one you can save.



It is hardly a bad thing for someone who is objectively a violent killer to die as a result of their own stupidity and malice.
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But you have no solution to the health issue that will remain with us.
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
When the radical pro-aborts on this site complain and wonder why I compare you to slavery supporters, don't wonder. This is why.

You cannot ever rightfully own another human being. Your support for legally owning other human beings, D_N, is utterly contemptible.
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Freedom for fetuses! Let's rip them all out of bondage in the womb.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
But you have no solution to the health issue that will remain with us.
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You have not identified any health issue.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
But you have no solution to the health issue that will remain with us.
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Exactly. Every pregnancy has the risk of health problems.
The causes can be conditions the woman already has or conditions she develops as a direct result from the prgnancy.
These can affect her health and/or the health of her unborn.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Health issue = "surgery".

What is your solution?
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Elective, needless surgeries, used to "treat" a healthy normal state?

No, you still have not identified any health issues.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Health issue = "surgery".

What is your solution?
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So breast implants are done to treat a health issue?

Hmmm...
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Health issue = "surgery".

What is your solution?
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Though I am pro-choice, you do seem unwilling to fully explain your side and actually explain things to your opponent in this debate like
a) the need for the surgery
b) what health risk you are talking about (you did finally mention that the health risk is coat hangers and street abortions. I would like to see numbers that say that there were as many abortions performed before it was legalized as after BUT despite that you are correct in the safety of illegal abortions. The funny thing that few pro-choicers ever mention is that before Roe v. Wade there were provisions for legal abortions when the mother's health was at risk.

Just to get this out of the way, I think no human has the right to remove another human's potential just "because". I think that is an evil. However, I think forced pregnancy is a greater evil (though perhaps not forced alternative birth control another thing that the coat hanger crowd don't mention the fact that there are far more options for birth control now than there were back in the coat hanger days) so it is a necessary evil IMO. Thus. Pro-choice. I also don't think I have much right to tell a female whether she can or can't have an abortion since it is nothing I will ever have to face myself. I also think that if women can "opt out" of being parents then so should men at no cost because that is only fair.
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
Elective, needless surgeries, used to "treat" a healthy normal state?

No, you still have not identified any health issues.
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Surgery requires a high degree of sterile instruments and environment as can be produced for the safety of the person having the surgery performed. That is a health issue.

Now, what is your solution?
 
Re: Life in the womb

Henrin said:
So breast implants are done to treat a health issue?

Hmmm...
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Brest implants are done in a hospital environment because surgery is a health issue. Now, what other diversionary nonsense are you going to try and throw into the mix.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Brest implants are done in a hospital environment because surgery is a health issue. Now, what other diversionary nonsense are you going to try and throw into the mix.
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What's the health issue that calls for breast implants to be done?
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
The surgery is a health issue.
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But what's the health issue that made the surgery necessary?
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Surgery requires a high degree of sterile instruments and environment as can be produced for the safety of the person having the surgery performed. That is a health issue.

Now, what is your solution?
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To needless and elective surgery, specifically surgery performed to kill another human being in violation of their rights as a human being, surgery which would in any just society be illegal?

Make it illegal. For those who choose to use the black market anyway, caveat emptor.
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
To needless and elective surgery, specifically surgery performed to kill another human being in violation of their rights as a human being, surgery which would in any just society be illegal?

Make it illegal. For those who choose to use the black market anyway, caveat emptor.
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Okay, you have no solution and your mind is completely closed.

:2wave:
 
Re: Life in the womb

Henrin said:
But what's the health issue that made the surgery necessary?
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Pick one, and then you can dance around all day long if you like.

:2wave:
 
Re: Life in the womb

Ntharotep said:
Though I am pro-choice, you do seem unwilling to fully explain your side and actually explain things to your opponent in this debate like
a) the need for the surgery
b) what health risk you are talking about (you did finally mention that the health risk is coat hangers and street abortions. I would like to see numbers that say that there were as many abortions performed before it was legalized as after BUT despite that you are correct in the safety of illegal abortions. The funny thing that few pro-choicers ever mention is that before Roe v. Wade there were provisions for legal abortions when the mother's health was at risk.

Just to get this out of the way, I think no human has the right to remove another human's potential just "because". I think that is an evil. However, I think forced pregnancy is a greater evil (though perhaps not forced alternative birth control another thing that the coat hanger crowd don't mention the fact that there are far more options for birth control now than there were back in the coat hanger days) so it is a necessary evil IMO. Thus. Pro-choice. I also don't think I have much right to tell a female whether she can or can't have an abortion since it is nothing I will ever have to face myself. I also think that if women can "opt out" of being parents then so should men at no cost because that is only fair.
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For the simple questions, there is really is no need to state a thesis and a whole position: Pro or against? "Pro" Why? "For social health reasons".

The end.
 
Re: Life in the womb

jet57 said:
Okay, you have no solution and your mind is completely closed.

:2wave:
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I provided a solution, even though you mischaracterized the problem as having something to do with health.
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
When the radical pro-aborts on this site complain and wonder why I compare you to slavery supporters, don't wonder. This is why.

You cannot ever rightfully own another human being. Your support for legally owning other human beings, D_N, is utterly contemptible.
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Slavery is forcing a women to allow her body to be used for 9 months without her consent.
 
Re: Life in the womb

ajn678 said:
Slavery is forcing a women to allow her body to be used for 9 months without her consent.
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Parenthood is not slavery. Don't create kids if you don't want parental obligations.
 
Re: Life in the womb

Gaugingcatenate said:
Lets use this hypothetical thought experiment. Can a Siamese twin just arbitrarily kill its twin? Since they are attached and all? You think that would/should be legal?
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It's already legal. If I have a set of legs coming out of my back, I can have them removed, even though they, technically, belong to my twin. If I have a second head growing out of my shoulder, even if it can occasionally wink at me, I can have it removed. If the twin is nothing but a threat to my existence, I can have it removed.

Has anyone ever heard that Richard Gere, I believe, supposedly had a conjoined twin attached to his shoulder...and had it removed? Oh, the humanity that a human was destroyed! Let the weeping and praying commence.

No doubt, your "thought" experiment is a false equivocation.

I ll leave you to digest that.
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Uhhhh....I know you think you just nailed me with a big gotcha but, yeah, if I had a twin attached who was just draining my resources, living at my expense, I'd feel justified in killing it. It would be my prerogative and that's that.

There's nothing to digest because your point is as free of substance as a communion wafer. It's just symbolic with no nutrition value.

Its a free country, you can move to other zip codes.
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Pray tell, which intellectual hot spot do you inhabit? Which bastion of neural activity do you call home, where fetuses are "innocent", in sharp contrast to the original sin of the woman? Oh, I'm sure you have every reason to gloat. [/sarcasm]
 
Re: Life in the womb

JayDubya said:
Parenthood is not slavery. Don't create kids if you don't want parental obligations.
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Abortion is the act of NOT creating a kid. It's as plain as the nose on your face. It's the way you can avoid parental obligations without doing it the Christian way of having children and neglecting them.
 
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