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Motherhood Heroic

MrWonka

MrWonka

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Joined
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Location
Charleston, SC
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Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
My position on abortion is that motherhood is a heroic gesture. I consider it on par with signing up for the military, becoming a firefighter or police officer, donating a kidney. Rather than putting yourself at risk of life and limb to save a life, you are putting yourself at risk of life and limb to create life. When people choose abortion I view it like a soldier that retreats too soon. A firefighter gets scared and runs out of a burning building with people still trapped in side. They are not hero's, but they are certainly not criminals either. None of us are capable of judging another person unless we ourselves are in their shoes. We all might like to think we know what we'd do in these situations, but it's impossible to know what any individual is going through and what factors into their decision, there for it is impossible for us to truly judge them.

We can cheer on and elevate those who are willing to endure pain and risk injury to save/create life, but we cannot force others to do it under fear of punishment.
 
:roll:

A woman not killing her kid doesn't make her a hero, but just someone that didn't kill their kid.
 
MrWonka said:
My position on abortion is that motherhood is a heroic gesture. I consider it on par with signing up for the military, becoming a firefighter or police officer, donating a kidney. Rather than putting yourself at risk of life and limb to save a life, you are putting yourself at risk of life and limb to create life. When people choose abortion I view it like a soldier that retreats too soon. A firefighter gets scared and runs out of a burning building with people still trapped in side. They are not hero's, but they are certainly not criminals either. None of us are capable of judging another person unless we ourselves are in their shoes. We all might like to think we know what we'd do in these situations, but it's impossible to know what any individual is going through and what factors into their decision, there for it is impossible for us to truly judge them.

We can cheer on and elevate those who are willing to endure pain and risk injury to save/create life, but we cannot force others to do it under fear of punishment.
Click to expand...

You know that cowardice is a court martial offense in the military, right?

And besides, abortion isn't equivalent to fleeing, it's equivalent to (and is) attacking the innocent.
 
Henrin said:
A woman not killing her kid doesn't make her a hero, but just someone that didn't kill their kid.
Click to expand...
Letting someone feed off of you, kick you, cause sickness, body deformation, extreme pain, and potentially kill you to secure their survival certainly fits the bill to me. I know people who have been saluted as hero's just for walking through an airport in a military uniform despite never serving even one second in any type of hostel area.
 
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Paleocon said:
You know that cowardice is a court martial offense in the military, right?
Click to expand...
And just like considering Abortion a crime it's really not prosecuted any more in the military, because people have woken up to the reality that it's unreasonable to judge a person in these types of horrible situations.

Only one person since Vietnam has even been charged with it, and that person was found innocent. He was diagnosed with PTSD, and honorably discharged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg-Andreas_Pogany

Paleocon said:
And besides, abortion isn't equivalent to fleeing, it's equivalent to (and is) attacking the innocent.
Click to expand...

An innocent person that's invading your body against your will causing you immense pain, and potentially putting your life at risk. Doesn't sound too innocent to me. Just walking into the wrong house on accident can get you shot legally. You're talking about a person that's not only in your house, but your body. I'd say that's more grounds than George Zimmerman ever had.

Soldier Accused as Coward Says He Is Guilty Only of Panic Attack - NYTimes.com

Eugene R. Fidell said:
the way the law is written makes these cases difficult to prosecute. Fear is an essential element of a cowardice charge, and judges know that fear is an extremely human reaction. We have come a long way from when we shot people for this.'
Click to expand...
 
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MrWonka said:
And just like considering Abortion a crime it's really not prosecuted any more in the military, because people have woken up to the reality that it's unreasonable to judge a person in these types of horrible situations.

Only one person since Vietnam has even been charged with it, and that person was found innocent. He was diagnosed with PTSD, and honorably discharged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg-Andreas_Pogany



An innocent person that's invading your body against your will causing you immense pain, and potentially putting your life at risk. Doesn't sound too innocent to me. Just walking into the wrong house on accident can get you shot legally. You're talking about a person that's not only in your house, but your body. I'd say that's more grounds than George Zimmerman ever had.
Click to expand...

How do you imagine a pregnancy happens?

And I guarantee you that if a toddler walked into your house and you shot them, you'd be prosecuted for murder.
 
Paleocon said:
How do you imagine a pregnancy happens?

And I guarantee you that if a toddler walked into your house and you shot them, you'd be prosecuted for murder.
Click to expand...

In a fair trial, that would depend on many factors.
 
Paleocon said:
How do you imagine a pregnancy happens?
Click to expand...
Doesn't really seem relevant.

Paleocon said:
And I guarantee you that if a toddler walked into your house and you shot them, you'd be prosecuted for murder.
Click to expand...

Actually I was reading an article just last week about a man who shot his own son breaking into his house after curfew. No charges.

The thing about a toddler in your house is that it's really easy to defend yourself against them without hurting them. When the toddler is inside your body and needs you for survival there's really no way to defend yourself against the toddler without harming it.
 
Henrin said:
:roll:

A woman not killing her kid doesn't make her a hero, but just someone that didn't kill their kid.
Click to expand...

A-yup.

No one is heroic just because they don't needlessly kill other human beings.
 
JayDubya said:
No one is heroic just because they don't needlessly kill other human beings.
Click to expand...

So how much need do they require? If the human being is causing legit fear, legit pain, legit suffering? How much pain should a human being be allowed to cause you before you can defend yourself from them?
 
Pozessed said:
In a fair trial, that would depend on many factors.
Click to expand...

Yeah, right.

MrWonka said:
Doesn't really seem relevant.



Actually I was reading an article just last week about a man who shot his own son breaking into his house after curfew. No charges.

The thing about a toddler in your house is that it's really easy to defend yourself against them without hurting them. When the toddler is inside your body and needs you for survival there's really no way to defend yourself against the toddler without harming it.
Click to expand...

Oh boy do you have trouble staying on topic. Your assertion was that killing the innocent is ok if they enter your house. I pointed out that if you killed a toddler for walking into your house (closest thing to an unborn child that can walk), you'd be prosecuted. Now you want to talk about teenagers.
 
Paleocon said:
Your assertion was that killing the innocent is ok if they enter your house. I pointed out that if you killed a toddler for walking into your house (closest thing to an unborn child that can walk), you'd be prosecuted. Now you want to talk about teenagers.
Click to expand...

How do you know how old the boy was? There was another story about a woman in Florida who was accidentally shot by her 4 year old.

What matters here is that you have a reasonable reason to fear for your safety. A toddler in a house may not be much of a threat, but a toddler inside your body certainly is.
 
MrWonka said:
My position on abortion is that motherhood is a heroic gesture. I consider it on par with signing up for the military, becoming a firefighter or police officer, donating a kidney. Rather than putting yourself at risk of life and limb to save a life, you are putting yourself at risk of life and limb to create life. When people choose abortion I view it like a soldier that retreats too soon. A firefighter gets scared and runs out of a burning building with people still trapped in side. They are not hero's, but they are certainly not criminals either. None of us are capable of judging another person unless we ourselves are in their shoes. We all might like to think we know what we'd do in these situations, but it's impossible to know what any individual is going through and what factors into their decision, there for it is impossible for us to truly judge them.

We can cheer on and elevate those who are willing to endure pain and risk injury to save/create life, but we cannot force others to do it under fear of punishment.
Click to expand...
This strikes me as a reasonably balanced and thoughtful post, to my sensibilities at least.

Thank you for posting it in what can sometimes be a difficult, divisive, and derisive sub-forum.

My only additional comment to your excellent words is: While well deserved of admiration, I wouldn't place too much overt awe at one's choosing to become a mother, though. Our mothers did it for us, and we now do it for ours. It's the cycle of life, and been done since eternity.

But I do very much believe in the quiet hero, that being the mother that selflessly sacrifices and does without for her kids, and the father who trudges-off to work a second job 'till late at night to keep food on the table at home. I'm talking about 'working-class heroes' here, and that aptly describes my parents, of which I'm eternally grateful for all they did for us kids! :thumbs:
 
MrWonka said:
How do you know how old the boy was? There was another story about a woman in Florida who was accidentally shot by her 4 year old.

What matters here is that you have a reasonable reason to fear for your safety. A toddler in a house may not be much of a threat, but a toddler inside your body certainly is.
Click to expand...

Because toddlers don't have "curfews" and they wouldn't know how to break into a house. This would all come automatically to you, if your ideology hadn't made you so disconnected from reality.

And that's all besides the point, the killing of the innocent isn't justifiable, and abortion isn't a matter of an accident or mistake of fact, no matter how much you wish to obfuscate.
 
Chomsky said:
While well deserved of admiration, I wouldn't place too much overt awe at one's choosing to become a mother, though. Our mothers did it for us, and we now do it for ours. It's the cycle of life, and been done since eternity.
Click to expand...

Yes, it has.
 
MrWonka said:
And just like considering Abortion a crime it's really not prosecuted any more in the military, because people have woken up to the reality that it's unreasonable to judge a person in these types of horrible situations.

Only one person since Vietnam has even been charged with it, and that person was found innocent. He was diagnosed with PTSD, and honorably discharged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg-Andreas_Pogany



An innocent person that's invading your body against your will causing you immense pain, and potentially putting your life at risk. Doesn't sound too innocent to me. Just walking into the wrong house on accident can get you shot legally. You're talking about a person that's not only in your house, but your body. I'd say that's more grounds than George Zimmerman ever had.

Soldier Accused as Coward Says He Is Guilty Only of Panic Attack - NYTimes.com
Click to expand...
To that I bolded:

After just praising your OP, I'm now blown away by your seeming animosity towards the innocent.

Oh well ...
 
MrWonka said:
How do you know how old the boy was? There was another story about a woman in Florida who was accidentally shot by her 4 year old.

What matters here is that you have a reasonable reason to fear for your safety. A toddler in a house may not be much of a threat, but a toddler inside your body certainly is.
Click to expand...

Women don't have toddlers inside of their bodies.
 
Henrin said:
Women don't have toddlers inside of their bodies.
Click to expand...

Well whatever they have in their bodies is certainly a threat to at the very least cause them excruciating pain if not physical harm or even death.
 
MrWonka said:
Well whatever they have in their bodies is certainly a threat to at the very least cause them excruciating pain if not physical harm or even death.
Click to expand...

Or not. ;)
 
Paleocon said:
Because toddlers don't have "curfews" and they wouldn't know how to break into a house.
Click to expand...
You don't seem to know many toddlers.

Paleocon said:
And that's all besides the point, the killing of the innocent isn't justifiable, and abortion isn't a matter of an accident or mistake of fact, no matter how much you wish to obfuscate.
Click to expand...

You keep using that word "innocent." I don't think you know what it means. A fetus inside the body of a woman is causing more pain, harm, and potentially even life risk than any random stranger that inadvertently wanders onto your property. Yet you'd have a right to kill the stranger in self defense.
 
Chomsky said:
I'm now blown away by your seeming animosity towards the innocent.
Click to expand...

You say innocent. If home invasion is a crime, then I would certainly hope body invasion would also be a crime is it not?
 
I have to wonder with arguments like these, when you use words like "horrible conditions" and compare pregnancy to going to war for one's country...what your real motive is.
Abortion is legal. That is enough. You don't have to bring down child rearing as some crime against humanity.
Some people actually love bringing life into the world, love being mothers from the time they first find out until delivering their baby into the world.
It isn't shameful, it isn't parasitic, and it certainly isn't war.

It isn't that mothers are not heroes. I respect my mom and am ever grateful that she brought me into this world and helped raise me once I was here.
I respect soldiers, men and women who combat enemies and harsh conditions in order to keep us safe and keep our freedoms intact.
They are not one in the same.

That being said, I don' hold any more a grudge for a woman who gets an abortion than I do for a man or woman who doesn't sign up to defend their country...its not my place to judge any of them.
It is important to stop putting things in buckets together that don't quite mesh though.
 
MrWonka said:
So someone has to wait and see if an invader intends to hurt them before taking action against the invader?
Click to expand...

The unborn is not an invader. It was put there by the woman's actions and the functions of her body.
 
MrWonka said:
You keep using that word "innocent." I don't think you know what it means. A fetus inside the body of a woman is causing more pain, harm, and potentially even life risk than any random stranger that inadvertently wanders onto your property. Yet you'd have a right to kill the stranger in self defense.
Click to expand...

Maybe my perspective differs, but when I read "random stranger wandering onto my property," I think "burglar," "rapist," "kidnapper," and "murderer." "Random strangers" don't often wander inadvertently into my yard.
 
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