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Motherhood Heroic

Aunt Spiker said:
This last part really connects to what I feel is truly broken in our country: We don't cheer on and elevate those who are willing to endure pain and risk injury to save/create life. Hardly anyone looks at a single mother in a positive light and men are often seen as being weird when they say they want to have a child.

Large families are made fun of and scorned, looked down on and seen as being weird.
Mothers who want to put careers on hold are disregarded by colleagues - ultimately having to choose one over the other on a permanent basis, and when they must return to work it's often at the detriment of their child's health and upbringing because in this day and age money is king.

Our country does ****-o for families. Generation X, especially, has been raised with the message of 'screw your kids'.

If people want to reduce unwanted pregnancies - they need to focus on improving the social value of family.
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So everyone in America just hates moms?

How about we provide birth control instead of some women giving birth to babies they can't provide for and raise?
 
TheGoverness said:
So everyone in America just hates moms?

How about we provide birth control instead of some women giving birth to babies they can't provide for and raise?
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I'd say that a large swatch of the modern world sends out signals that condemn parenthood and negate children, yep.

And there's nothing wrong with birth control - or not having children, etc. Society holding values that oppose well rounded childrearing isn't the same as making it difficult to avoid pregnancy by opposing birth control (etc)
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I'd say that a large swatch of the modern world sends out signals that condemn parenthood and negate children, yep.

And there's nothing wrong with birth control - or not having children, etc. Society holding values that oppose well rounded childrearing isn't the same as making it difficult to avoid pregnancy by opposing birth control (etc)
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I guess you're right. But I don't know where we'd even begin to fix such a complex and broad issue as that.
 
TheGoverness said:
I guess you're right. But I don't know where we'd even begin to fix such a complex and broad issue as that.
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I don't know either . . . I don't imagine things used to be that way. But you know, last year I read Lysistrata, a play written by Aristophanes some 2500 years ago, and in it the women gripe about the toils of motherhood like some do today. Maybe it's possible that things were always that way and what I'm seeing isn't new, it's just life as usual.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I don't know either . . . I don't imagine things used to be that way. But you know, last year I read Lysistrata, a play written by Aristophanes some 2500 years ago, and in it the women gripe about the toils of motherhood like some do today. Maybe it's possible that things were always that way and what I'm seeing isn't new, it's just life as usual.
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This is probably how our society has always been. But maybe it'll change, with time.
 
MrWonka said:
My position on abortion is that motherhood is a heroic gesture. I consider it on par with signing up for the military, becoming a firefighter or police officer, donating a kidney. Rather than putting yourself at risk of life and limb to save a life, you are putting yourself at risk of life and limb to create life. When people choose abortion I view it like a soldier that retreats too soon. A firefighter gets scared and runs out of a burning building with people still trapped in side. They are not hero's, but they are certainly not criminals either. None of us are capable of judging another person unless we ourselves are in their shoes. We all might like to think we know what we'd do in these situations, but it's impossible to know what any individual is going through and what factors into their decision, there for it is impossible for us to truly judge them.

We can cheer on and elevate those who are willing to endure pain and risk injury to save/create life, but we cannot force others to do it under fear of punishment.
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So you are probably more than happy to contribute your tax dollars to welfare and other public assistance for those women that choose to be heroes even when they are not prepared for it or cannot afford it? To support all sorts of programs and daycare services?

I am happy to see people truly stick by their beliefs. I also hold good parenting at the very top of the list of contributions to society.
 
This is just silly.

I respect the sanctity of pregnancy for those who wish to go through with it, but in another sense, how much credit do you want for getting knocked up? Do you want an award or something?

It's heroic to follow your heart and do what is right no matter who or what is pressuring you to do otherwise, whether that's to have a kid or not.
 
nota bene said:
Or not. ;)
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But since women die every year and tens of thousands of others suffer severe health damage (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, etc) every yr in America. during pregnancy and childbith...and that's with abortion to have prevented those things available...apparently it's not predictable or preventable for 87,000 women each yr.

So...or, yuh ;) Really sucks for them...and their mothers, fathers, husbands, kids, sisters, brothers, etc etc etc.

Sad that people so often just take for granted what it actually takes to bring forth a baby...because we all know there is no choice if we want kids. So you just suck it up and do it. But that decision doesnt exempt you from all the pain and sacrifices...up to and including your life.
 
Ntharotep said:
When did this law get revoked? I might have missed this.


More like you had sex with that uninvited guest and they stayed.
People forget that little part of the equation and if having sex to you is the same as forgetting to close a door there might be bigger issues.
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Having sex is not consenting to have a kid. A kid isnt 'punishment' for an accidental condom breaking or a woman's behavior you dont approve of or for a married couple who cant yet afford kids.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Your posts are frickin' great! You know toddlers that are good at Breaking and Entering (B and E)? :lol:
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Well they are really short and people usually dont see them enter. And the dogs love them cuz they know they have hands and faces sticky with food.

It's all fun and games until some asshole homeowner notices and shoots 'em.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Does he ingest toddlers in one of the Iron Man movies that I missed?
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Well, it's more like he's on the outside, discovers the world of the born isn't for sissies, so he made a high tech artificial womb and has to go in and out from time to time. I guess like it works pretty much Paleocon's toddlers. :shrug:
 
Removable Mind said:
Well, it's more like he's on the outside, discovers the world of the born isn't for sissies, so he made a high tech artificial womb and has to go in and out from time to time. I guess like it works pretty much Paleocon's toddlers. :shrug:
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Is that the one where Tony's suit has a systems malfunction and Pepper Potts says "I don't know nothin 'bout birthin no superheros?
 
Lursa said:
But since women die every year and tens of thousands of others suffer severe health damage (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, etc) every yr in America. during pregnancy and childbith...and that's with abortion to have prevented those things available...apparently it's not predictable or preventable for 87,000 women each yr.

So...or, yuh ;) Really sucks for them...and their mothers, fathers, husbands, kids, sisters, brothers, etc etc etc.

Sad that people so often just take for granted what it actually takes to bring forth a baby...because we all know there is no choice if we want kids. So you just suck it up and do it. But that decision doesnt exempt you from all the pain and sacrifices...up to and including your life.
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You can spare me the hyperbolic sarcasm, Lursa. I am not minimizing the risks of pregnancy, but I am also not going to exaggerate about what is a normal part of the cycle of life.

And who would argue about an abortion for, say, an ectopic pregnancy? But that is not what the abortion debate is about: It’s about elective abortions.

And pretending that pregnancy is routinely a threat to the mother’s very life just isn’t so.

I suppose this is a cue for every woman who posts here to share again her extraordinary experiences. In the hope of avoiding that tedious repetition, I’m not going to share mine; I’m just going to say that I know the difference between “extraordinary” and “ordinary” and between “atypical” and “typical.”
 
year2late said:
Is that the one where Tony's suit has a systems malfunction and Pepper Potts says "I don't know nothin 'bout birthin no superheros?
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:lol: Well, I was metaphorically using the Iron Man Suit as an artificial womb and Tony Stark as a Toddler. And of course this all goes back to the "Toddler in the womb" comment by Paleocon, which Bod made his reply, which was something like "how did the toddler get in the womb" sort of thing and so as the read the bantering I said, "it's the reverse stark effect.", which Bod then brought in Tony Stark to the discussion about toddlers in wombs...and then the rest with the suit being an artificial womb popped out...and yadda, yadda, yadda... :mrgreen:

So your reply fits right in... :lamo
 
nota bene said:
You can spare me the hyperbolic sarcasm, Lursa. I am not minimizing the risks of pregnancy, but I am also not going to exaggerate about what is a normal part of the cycle of life.

And who would argue about an abortion for, say, an ectopic pregnancy? But that is not what the abortion debate is about: It’s about elective abortions.

And pretending that pregnancy is routinely a threat to the mother’s very life just isn’t so.

I suppose this is a cue for every woman who posts here to share again her extraordinary experiences. In the hope of avoiding that tedious repetition, I’m not going to share mine; I’m just going to say that I know the difference between “extraordinary” and “ordinary” and between “atypical” and “typical.”
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I'd bet that the majority of abortions are due to mothers perceiving a threat to their life. Their perception carries more weight regarding their health IMO than social dissatisfaction.
 
MrWonka said:
What about forgetting to take a birth control pill?
What about having a condom break or fall off?
What about telling the guy to pull out?
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1 - Depot shots are free more times than not or at a very low cost
2 - Things can happen...this is why I said abortion should be a LAST resort not done away with
3 - Umm...if this is birth control then it is likely the couple is not too serious about preventing pregnancy...

TheGoverness said:
I guess you're right. But I don't know where we'd even begin to fix such a complex and broad issue as that.
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Culture doesn't change without people changing it generally. Just like bigots and homophobes should be spoken against, so should people who make pregnancy out to be an atrocity of some sort.

Lursa said:
Having sex is not consenting to have a kid. A kid isnt 'punishment' for an accidental condom breaking or a woman's behavior you dont approve of or for a married couple who cant yet afford kids.
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Never insinuated it was (edit: should say I never meant to insinuate it was), but it definitely should be a consideration during sex. It isn't something you can just go "oh well, no biggie" about. And it is a far cry from leaving your front door open. Unless leaving your front door open is a euphemism I missed somewhere...
 
Pozessed said:
I'd bet that the majority of abortions are due to mothers perceiving a threat to their life. Their perception carries more weight regarding their health IMO than social dissatisfaction.
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I don't think the statistics will support your perspective, but I opine that yet to be born under the stage of viable - women don't need a reason or be accountable to anybody as to why they choose to have an abortion. But statistics that will bear out is well over 90% of abortions are performed at 12 weeks and under. Of those, about 60% are 10 weeks and under.

Women don't have anymore legal or moral obligations to reproduce than men do. That's a difficult thing to grasp for a lot of people. They don't see the Constitutional correlation with equal protection under the law, right to privacy and due process under the law enjoyed in the same manner as men. In other words, women should never be discriminated against because they don't have a penis.
 
MrWonka said:
So how much need do they require? If the human being is causing legit fear, legit pain, legit suffering? How much pain should a human being be allowed to cause you before you can defend yourself from them?
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According to most prolifers, almost an infinite amount.
 
Pozessed said:
I'd bet that the majority of abortions are due to mothers perceiving a threat to their life. Their perception carries more weight regarding their health IMO than social dissatisfaction.
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Threat to life may not necessarily mean imminent life or death peril, but if you were already a low wage earner struggling to keep yourself fed and housed - and being pregnant lessened your ability to support yourself - you would clearly feel a threat to your life.

Many women who chose abortion are already lower income and already are struggling to support children at home.

And frankly we are in an atmosphere (right or wrong) that clearly looks upon people needing assistance (like a poor woman that is pregnant) as sub human trash steeling our hard earned money. A good way to help a woman decide to keep a pregnancy is to show her she will able to support and nurture the baby she brings into the world. It is funny that the side who wants to eliminate access to abortion also wants to severely curtail access to social safety nets as well. Go figure.
 
nota bene said:
You can spare me the hyperbolic sarcasm, Lursa. I am not minimizing the risks of pregnancy, but I am also not going to exaggerate about what is a normal part of the cycle of life.

And who would argue about an abortion for, say, an ectopic pregnancy? But that is not what the abortion debate is about: It’s about elective abortions.

And pretending that pregnancy is routinely a threat to the mother’s very life just isn’t so.

I suppose this is a cue for every woman who posts here to share again her extraordinary experiences. In the hope of avoiding that tedious repetition, I’m not going to share mine; I’m just going to say that I know the difference between “extraordinary” and “ordinary” and between “atypical” and “typical.”
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You dont have to exaggerate....there are realities to pregnancy and it kills or permanently harms tens of thousands of women in this country every year...and those are the ones that cannot be prevented or predicted.

There's no pretending....abortion for medical reasons is perfectly available...yet these women all died or were severely harmed....again...not everything (87,000/yr) can be predicted OR prevented.

Those risks are real and significant. As I tried to realistically and factually...not hyperbolically...point out.

And the point there is: IMO no one else is entitled to demand a woman take those unpredictable and unpreventable risks against their will. Which further restrictions on abortion would do.
 
Ntharotep said:
Never insinuated it was (edit: should say I never meant to insinuate it was), but it definitely should be a consideration during sex. It isn't something you can just go "oh well, no biggie" about. And it is a far cry from leaving your front door open. Unless leaving your front door open is a euphemism I missed somewhere...
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Are you assuming or implying that most couples dont even think about it? Or dont consider it? 65% of all women having sex use birth control. It still fails, none of it is 100% unless surgical.

People have sex with no intentions of having a kid. And most in the US, according to the statistics, use birth control.
 
Lursa said:
So you are probably more than happy to contribute your tax dollars to welfare and other public assistance for those women that choose to be heroes even when they are not prepared for it or cannot afford it? To support all sorts of programs and daycare services?

I am happy to see people truly stick by their beliefs. I also hold good parenting at the very top of the list of contributions to society.
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Absolutely.
 
Lursa said:
You dont have to exaggerate....there are realities to pregnancy and it kills or permanently harms tens of thousands of women in this country every year...and those are the ones that cannot be prevented or predicted.

There's no pretending....abortion for medical reasons is perfectly available...yet these women all died or were severely harmed....again...not everything (87,000/yr) can be predicted OR prevented.

Those risks are real and significant. As I tried to realistically and factually...not hyperbolically...point out.

And the point there is: IMO no one else is entitled to demand a woman take those unpredictable and unpreventable risks against their will. Which further restrictions on abortion would do.
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Even though I actually suffered harm from my pregnancy ....I am here to say that not all the harm/danger is medical. Think of the woman who can barely support herself - working multiple jobs to make ends meet. For her, making ends meet means barely affording the rent and deciding that paying the phone bill is more important than the heat.....because if she cannot get calls to pick up an extra shift, she cannot make rent. Being pregnant for that woman will mean later in pregnancy cutting down on her shifts and eventually taking time off for birth. Is the magic birth fairy going to pay her rent?

Even though when I got pregnant I was in an acceptable financial position....my complications required that I take off nearly 6 months. Off work, paying cobra....wondering if I would have a job when I came back????By the time I went back to work, I went from ok financially to heavily in debt. But I was in a financial position to weather that storm. I mean unless after 12 weeks they fired me like they were legally able to do.
 
TheGoverness said:
So everyone in America just hates moms?

How about we provide birth control instead of some women giving birth to babies they can't provide for and raise?
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No, but mothers that abort should be shot. Not to death but just in the legs. Two wrongs don't make a right but it would show that society cares for the innocent.
 
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