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Abortion: How Conservatives and Liberals got it wrong

year2late said:
Of course they would have to compromise.

What you are suggesting is simply "caving in"

That is dumb.
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Where did I ever suggest caving in? You suggested this as an issue where Republicans have any leverage to compromise, and they don't.
 
Lursa said:
When each woman has a choice...there is no 'extreme' unless you can explain how you are choosing to define 'extreme.' The trend is for less, not more. What seems to be extreme is your rigid bias on the issue that does not allow you to see beyond your own perceptions.
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I use it by it's very definition. You seem to imply that 'extreme' is a synonym of harsh, which it is not.
 
Debater said:
In politics as with life, most issues and events aren't simply black and white. Unfortunately for abortion, this has become the case. Liberals in general support no restrictions on abortion and wish for abortion to be legal up until 36 weeks of pregnancy. This is ridiculous position and at this point in the pregnancy, the issue of abortion switches from one of privacy and personal freedom, to one of immorality. Mainstream conservatives on the other hand are equally as radical when it comes to abortion as well. Conservatives have now reached a point where abortion should remain illegal under all circumstances, even instances of rape, incest, and if having a child is a danger to the mothers health. By polarizing this issue, both political ideologies have prevented a happy medium from being achieved when it comes to abortion.

When regarding abortion, it should be legal on request up until 16 weeks of pregnancy. 95% of abortions happen within the first 16 weeks so this wouldn't really effect abortion rights all that much. This law would reduce the immorality of abortion by prohibiting third trimester and a good deal of second trimester abortions when the baby is more developed. At the same time, a 16 week cut off would not infringe on the individual liberty and freedom for women to get an abortion if they wanted too. This compromise and centrist view on abortion should be a middle ground that both conservatives and liberals should strive for.
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That was impressive. Something that I can honestly say that I've never seen before. You managed to broad brush BOTH sides of the abortion debate and get them both wrong.
 
thenotorious said:
I use it by it's very definition. You seem to imply that 'extreme' is a synonym of harsh, which it is not.
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Again you avoid answering a direct question.

There is no extreme in the pro-choice position. I pointed out why. You have not provided anything to dispute it except 'na huh!'
 
Lursa said:
I agree but it's not pro-choice people they need to convince...it's a legal issue as you point out, so you have to bring compelling legally-based reasons to the court that would cause them to reconsider the decision in RvW. What are some reasons?
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I also find it quite hilarious you think I'm the one with the bias when you continue to use subjective words. ;)
 
Lursa said:
Again you avoid answering a direct question.

There is no extreme in the pro-choice position. I pointed out why. You have not provided anything to dispute it except 'na huh!'
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...And I read it, not that I had to cause I completely understand how you think. You think abortions are 100% perfect, no blemishes at all. You'll continue to manipulate and distort reality against anyone who remotely challenges your perfect perception of it. The thing is, that's completely fine. That's your prerogative. I don't really care to engage with closed-minded people like that though, because whether I agree with them or not, nothing changes and it is a waste of time for both of us.


I will answer this question, for the last time. As well as any question of yours, for the last time.

Here is a spectrum: http://www.pion.cz/_sites/pion/uplo...7cfdebd63cf64382_electromagnetic-spectrum.png

Pretend the color purple is being completely pro-life. Pretend the red is being completely pro-abortion. In the middle is a mix of viewpoints.

Now, here is the definition of extreme: furthest from the center or a given point; outermost:

I've explained it you in the most basic of terms that even a second-grader could understand it. I will not explain it again, if you don't understand it, if you don't agree with it, I'm sorry. You probably don't, and I truly don't care at this point.
 
thenotorious said:
I also find it quite hilarious you think I'm the one with the bias when you continue to use subjective words. ;)
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And yet you avoid actual discussion. While I understand that the law is subjective...exactly what bias do you read in the post you quoted?

If you recognize you have no legal basis to change the law or their decision....just say so.
 
thenotorious said:
...And I read it, not that I had to cause I completely understand how you think. You think abortions are 100% perfect, no blemishes at all. You'll continue to manipulate and distort reality against anyone who remotely challenges your perfect perception of it. The thing is, that's completely fine. That's your prerogative. I don't really care to engage with closed-minded people like that though, because whether I agree with them or not, nothing changes and it is a waste of time for both of us.


I will answer this question, for the last time. As well as any question of yours, for the last time.

Here is a spectrum: http://www.pion.cz/_sites/pion/uplo...7cfdebd63cf64382_electromagnetic-spectrum.png

Pretend the color purple is being completely pro-life. Pretend the red is being completely pro-abortion. In the middle is a mix of viewpoints.

Now, here is the definition of extreme: furthest from the center or a given point; outermost:

I've explained it you in the most basic of terms that even a second-grader could understand it. I will not explain it again, if you don't understand it, if you don't agree with it, I'm sorry. You probably don't, and I truly don't care at this point.
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Where are you getting this stuff? Personally I find abortion a sad and difficult and unfortunate decision for a woman, but I respect women enough to believe that they are capable of and know enough to make the best decisions for themselves and their families, current and future.

I see it much like divorce...no one wants to get a divorce and it's supposed to be one of the most stressful and difficult decisions of someone's life. However that does not mean it's the *wrong* decision. People make it in the belief that they are making 'the best' choice for their futures and that of their families...that it's the best decision for the long-term.

I note that your discussion has moved more towards discussing 'me' and what I think (quite erroneously), rather than actually discussing the issue. Please get back on topic and discuss abortion....otherwise you continue to fulfill my opinion that you cannot support yours well and must resort to personal judgements. (And you have certainly not explained your position clearly...you stated your opinions, but have not supported them with much)
 
Lursa said:
Where are you getting this stuff? Personally I find abortion a sad and difficult and unfortunate decision for a woman, but I respect women enough to believe that they are capable of and know enough to make the best decisions for themselves and their families, current and future.

I see it much like divorce...no one wants to get a divorce and it's supposed to be one of the most stressful and difficult decisions of someone's life. However that does not mean it's the *wrong* decision. People make it in the belief that they are making 'the best' choice for their futures and that of their families...that it's the best decision for the long-term.

I note that your discussion has moved more towards discussing 'me' and what I think (quite erroneously), rather than actually discussing the issue. Please get back on topic and discuss abortion....otherwise you continue to fulfill my opinion that you cannot support yours well and must resort to personal judgements. (And you have certainly not explained your position clearly...you stated your opinions, but have not supported them with much)
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A) I never stated abortion was wrong.

B) I didn't resort to personal judgements to get my point across, I used them as reasoning as to why I don't wish to answer your questions anymore. Very well in hopes that you would actually listen for once and not keep asking me the same question I've already explained, but that has clearly failed.

C) I guess the dictionary has my opinions now, who knew.

D) I agree, I shouldn't have to discuss your bias at all as I already stated. It's honestly just easier to concede at this point, you are right. Abortion is the only viewpoint without perspective, and is therefore devoid from having 'extreme' viewpoints.
 
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thenotorious said:
A) I never stated abortion was wrong.

B) I didn't resort to personal judgements to get my point across, I used them as reasoning as to why I don't wish to answer your questions anymore. Very well in hopes that you would actually listen for once and not keep asking me the same question I've already explained, but that has clearly failed.

C) I guess the dictionary has my opinions now, who knew.

D) I agree, I shouldn't have to discuss your bias at all as I already stated. It's honestly just easier to concede at this point, you are right. Abortion is the only viewpoint without perspective, and is therefore devoid from having 'extreme' viewpoints.
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So you do not have direct answers to my questions to support your position.

That's really all you had to write.
 
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Debater said:
In politics as with life, most issues and events aren't simply black and white. Unfortunately for abortion, this has become the case. Liberals in general support no restrictions on abortion and wish for abortion to be legal up until 36 weeks of pregnancy. This is ridiculous position and at this point in the pregnancy, the issue of abortion switches from one of privacy and personal freedom, to one of immorality. Mainstream conservatives on the other hand are equally as radical when it comes to abortion as well. Conservatives have now reached a point where abortion should remain illegal under all circumstances, even instances of rape, incest, and if having a child is a danger to the mothers health. By polarizing this issue, both political ideologies have prevented a happy medium from being achieved when it comes to abortion.

When regarding abortion, it should be legal on request up until 16 weeks of pregnancy. 95% of abortions happen within the first 16 weeks so this wouldn't really effect abortion rights all that much. This law would reduce the immorality of abortion by prohibiting third trimester and a good deal of second trimester abortions when the baby is more developed. At the same time, a 16 week cut off would not infringe on the individual liberty and freedom for women to get an abortion if they wanted too. This compromise and centrist view on abortion should be a middle ground that both conservatives and liberals should strive for.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the post Debater. I too have come looking for some sort of "common ground." What I have learned is that the other side does not care so much for compromise but to "educate" and belittle me on how wrong my position is and by not agreeing with them that automatically makes me misogynist.

In a pro-choicers mind, any restrictions on abortion is restriction on a women's right to choose.

We need to stop giving women preferential treatment because of their uterus. A woman should be held to the exact same standard as a man. By giving women preferential treatment, that by definition is gender discrimination.
 
Lursa said:
So you do not have direct answers to my questions to support your position.

That's really all you had to write.
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Yes, you are a 101% accurate.
 
Bucky said:
Thank you for the post Debater. I too have come looking for some sort of "common ground." What I have learned is that the other side does not care so much for compromise but to "educate" and belittle me on how wrong my position is and by not agreeing with them that automatically makes me misogynist.

In a pro-choicers mind, any restrictions on abortion is restriction on a women's right to choose.

We need to stop giving women preferential treatment because of their uterus. A woman should be held to the exact same standard as a man. By giving women preferential treatment, that by definition is gender discrimination.
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Pro-choice is certainly a compromise:
Lursa said:
No woman is forced to have an abortion
and
No woman is forced to remain pregnant.

Each woman can make her decision based on her beliefs and what is in the best interests of her life and that of her family, current and future.
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Now, can you please explain what 'preferential treatment women get because of their uteruses? And of course provide a foundation beneath it that still upholds our Constitutional and inalienable rights.
 
Debater said:
...

When regarding abortion, it should be legal on request up until 16 weeks of pregnancy. 95% of abortions happen within the first 16 weeks so this wouldn't really effect abortion rights all that much. This law would reduce the immorality of abortion by prohibiting third trimester and a good deal of second trimester abortions when the baby is more developed. At the same time, a 16 week cut off would not infringe on the individual liberty and freedom for women to get an abortion if they wanted too. This compromise and centrist view on abortion should be a middle ground that both conservatives and liberals should strive for.
Click to expand...


Bucky said:
Thank you for the post Debater. I too have come looking for some sort of "common ground." What I have learned is that the other side does not care so much for compromise but to "educate" and belittle me on how wrong my position is...
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Less than 100 abortions happen in third trimester and they are extreme cases to save the woman life or irreparable damage of a major bodiliy function. ( stroke, heart attack, paralysis from neck down, kidney damage etc.)

It is not that pro choice is unwilling to comprise on a timeline of 16 weeks as long as abortions for fetal or maternal health are made.

Abprtion and the right to privacy is a Supreme Court decision.
The only thing that would reduce the timeline of abortions to 16 weeks would be if viability was reduced to 16 weeks. ( experts agree that it highly unlikely ,so highly unlike it is near impossible that any preemie younger than 21 weeks gestation would ever survive. Their lungs and digestive are so undeveloped no technology could help them survive.)

The fact is currently over 91 percent of US abortions occur during the first trimester.
Over 60 percent occur under 8 weeks gestation in the US.

Almost all of the abortions past the first trimester are because of fetal or material health.

In fact even though elective abortion is legal in the US until viability our rate of abortions based on percentage of pregnancies was less in 2013 than France, Denmark, or Sweden , and tied with the United Kingdom.

Percentage of pregnancies aborted by country (listed by percentage)
 
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Debater said:
Liberals in general support no restrictions on abortion and wish for abortion to be legal up until 36 weeks of pregnancy.
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Ummm....got anything reasonably significant to support this claim?
 
minnie616 said:
Less than 100 abortions happen in third trimester and they are extreme cases to save the woman life or irreparable damage of a major bodiliy function. ( stroke, heart attack, paralysis from neck down, kidney damage etc.)

It is not that pro choice is unwilling to comprise on a timeline of 16 weeks as long as abortions for fetal or maternal health are made.

Abprtion and the right to privacy is a Supreme Court decision.
The only thing that would reduce the timeline of abortions to 16 weeks would be if viability was reduced to 16 weeks. ( experts agree that it highly unlikely ,so highly unlike it is near impossible that any preemie younger than 21 weeks gestation would ever survive. Their lungs and digestive are so undeveloped no technology could help them survive.)

The fact is currently over 91 percent of US abortions occur during the first trimester.
Over 60 percent occur under 8 weeks gestation in the US.

Almost all of the abortions past the first trimester are because of fetal or material health.

In fact even though elective abortion is legal in the US until viability our rate of abortions based on percentage of pregnancies was less in 2013 than France, Denmark, or Sweden , and tied with the United Kingdom.

Percentage of pregnancies aborted by country (listed by percentage)
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Crap, there go those pesky facts again.:2wave:
 
Bucky said:
We need to stop giving women preferential treatment because of their uterus. A woman should be held to the exact same standard as a man. By giving women preferential treatment, that by definition is gender discrimination.
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Please identify the preferential treatment as it relates to abortion that a woman gets because of her uterus.
 
thenotorious said:
however there is a large portion that believe in no restrictions as can be seen in the chart.
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Please provide factual evidence, or admit you're over-exaggerating beyond reason.

That "chart" doesn't explain anything.
 
Bucky said:
Thank you for the post Debater. I too have come looking for some sort of "common ground." What I have learned is that the other side does not care so much for compromise but to "educate" and belittle me on how wrong my position is and by not agreeing with them that automatically makes me misogynist.

In a pro-choicers mind, any restrictions on abortion is restriction on a women's right to choose.

We need to stop giving women preferential treatment because of their uterus. A woman should be held to the exact same standard as a man. By giving women preferential treatment, that by definition is gender discrimination.
Click to expand...

They don't care for compromise, because nothing has been offered in return. Democrats are less moderate on the issue, and Republicans have already offered a 20 week ban with general exclusions, much less a 16 week one and it was blocked. Republicans will have to bring something to the table to entice democrats to change their point of view, or at least be willing to ignore it.
 
year2late said:
Please identify the preferential treatment as it relates to abortion that a woman gets because of her uterus.
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Legal abortion.
 
Dragonfly said:
Please provide factual evidence, or admit you're over-exaggerating beyond reason.

That "chart" doesn't explain anything.
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I provided factual evidence. In fact, I even agreed with you and used it to prove as such, but forbid you quote anybody in this sub and they turn it into something personal. I simple also suggested that the 31% of Democrats who support abortion under any circumstance is still a good amount of people. Do you not believe 31% is still a large portion of 100%?
 
thenotorious said:
They don't care for compromise, because nothing has been offered in return. Democrats are less moderate on the issue, and Republicans have already offered a 20 week ban with general exclusions, much less a 16 week one and it was blocked. Republicans will have to bring something to the table to entice democrats to change their point of view, or at least be willing to ignore it.
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Roe is a Supreme Court decision.

Most pro choice agree with Roe which allows for states to ban abortion past viability except when the woman's life is at risk or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.
 
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