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Abortion

An abortion is never medically necessary to save a mothers life.

Tell that to Savita Halappanavar.



My position is clear: An abortion is never morally or medically necessary. Not even in the case of rape or incest. I will state this until I die: The right to choice ends when another life begins.

You have the right to your beliefs but you don't have the right to force them on others.
 
Right so its her property to kill as she chooses, just like slaves in the old south. Great argument :thumbs:

Not a valid comparison. Slaves are/were born people. I believe it was illegal to kill them, but was rarely prosecuted.
 
Not a valid comparison. Slaves are/were born people. I believe it was illegal to kill them, but was rarely prosecuted.

Slaves were not people. You are wrong.
 
So you believe that it's more important to care about the unborn than women? If people care about women...they are not as caring as those that care more about the unborn?

We should care about all living humans, yes including women. Don't you agree?

Women should care about themselves more, be more discerning in their choices, the decisions they make. We should all be concerned about what harm they, and all those equally non-discerning men as well, do to others by being so causal with something so important. Don't you think? Or do you think we should mainly be concerned with women to the exclusion of all others?

That is being overly discriminatory to all the rest of us, isn't it? That doesn't concern you, all this discrimination exclusively and positively directed at one set of folks to the detriment of the others? And if this discrimination is okay, well then are we to agree discrimination will just have to be okay then? In all areas, not just this one? That would be discriminatory, right? And what is the basis of this privilege of one group over another?

If you say nature and biology, that makes it right... well then, would you agree that nature and biology have created men physically dominant and that because of that men should, because of nature and biology, just be dominant? Or should there be restraint, based on societal morals that man should not hurt women just because they can, and societal morals that women should not hurt their babies, the unborn, just because they can?
 
Why on earth should she pray? What she needs to do is make her own decision. Honestly, the answer isn't prayer which is total nonsense anyway, it's making a choice.
We agree on making a choice, but the choice to be made is not putting oneself in the position of getting pregnant, or in the case of men, getting someone else pregnant, unless they intend to follow through with the pregnancy. Once you start a new life, there is no longer a choice, there is left only the responsibility for the choice one already made. A choice you cannot take back without the premeditated taking of the life of another.

Most, if sapient caring human beings, understand this concept.
 
How can the unborn and born be treated equally...legally or practically?'
Ummmmmm you know it's possible for both of them to be considered persons under the constitution and the only time aborting the unborn human would be "justifiable" is if it's putting the woman life in actual danger like in the case of etopic pregnancy? This is a question I see you keep bringing and pro lifers answering but since you don't like the obvious answer, you'll keep asking on a whim still right? Aka still ad nauseum.
 
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All depends on your level of humanity I suppose. If you are uncaring, you are probably uncaring about both, more or less. A fetus is us at a younger age, all of us. All of us alive, separate DNA from mother or father human beings that have no voice of our own yet to defend our existence and rely upon those of us who were not aborted to speak in our behalf.

Your attempt at a joke is sexist and offensive.

I don't much care if I was killed before I even had an inkling that I might be alive. It probably would have saved me the trouble of being born, growing up, getting a job and growing old.

Hell, for most people an abortion just might be doing them a favor.
 
I don't much care if I was killed before I even had an inkling that I might be alive. It probably would have saved me the trouble of being born, growing up, getting a job and growing old.

Hell, for most people an abortion just might be doing them a favor.
Yes, well most of those living in the world are grateful and not near as negative. Most of us are hopeful, joyful and appreciative of the fact that we were given this chance to exist... and not losing the cruel lottery in which their makers destroy them and their chance at continued existence.
 
Yes, well most of those living in the world are grateful and not near as negative. Most of us are hopeful, joyful and appreciative of the fact that we were given this chance to exist... and not losing the cruel lottery in which their makers destroy them and their chance at continued existence.

You wouldn't have known the difference if sucked out by a vacuum before ever forming a thought. That's the point.
 
You wouldn't have known the difference if sucked out by a vacuum before ever forming a thought. That's the point.
Yes, that is a part of the concept as well. I now have the capacity to fully understand the true thievery that is going on here, having had the chance to grow my mind and my humanity towards my fellows.

I also sympathize for those who feel so little for themselves, how could they find their way to feel something so much more for someone else. I can not bring myself to empathize with that inability, however. Its all about choice, but like much of life, it is all about the timing of those choices. And then inexorably, the inevitable consequences of those choices.
 
Yes, that is a part of the concept as well. I now have the capacity to fully understand the true thievery that is going on here, having had the chance to grow my mind and my humanity towards my fellows.

I also sympathize for those who feel so little for themselves, how could they find their way to feel something so much more for someone else. I can not bring myself to empathize with that inability, however. Its all about choice, but like much of life, it is all about the timing of those choices. And then inexorably, the inevitable consequences of those choices.

Do you consider the deaths of nearly 10 million children around the world, "under the age of 5 years old" who die every year of "PREVENTABLE" deaths as a "true thievery"?

Most of these child suffer and many suffer severely. That's far from the case of these stages of development in which well over 90% of the abortions are performed. They are developmentally incapable of self awareness or have the neural system to feel pain.

If people around the world turn their backs on the millions of children who suffer and die annually - why in the word would you wish that for so many unwanted conceptions to be brought to birth? Do you believe that these kids suffering and deaths are some sort of supernatural's plan for humanity?
 
Slaves were not people. You are wrong.
You are betraying your lack of knowledge again. Slaves were indeed people. Matter of fact they were counted in the constitutionally mandated census. Fetuses, not so much.
 
Do you consider the deaths of nearly 10 million children around the world, "under the age of 5 years old" who die every year of "PREVENTABLE" deaths as a "true thievery"?

Most of these child suffer and many suffer severely. That's far from the case of these stages of development in which well over 90% of the abortions are performed. They are developmentally incapable of self awareness or have the neural system to feel pain.

If people around the world turn their backs on the millions of children who suffer and die annually - why in the word would you wish that for so many unwanted conceptions to be brought to birth? Do you believe that these kids suffering and deaths are some sort of supernatural's plan for humanity?
Two wrongs dont make a right quickly comes to mind. Don't know about you but I can chew gum and walk at the same time. We can care about both, why just one to the exclusion of others. They are both the reality, we have to deal with reality as we find it, especially when its so tragic.

I see very few, in relation to the general population, racing to take the place of the unborn... both my parents hung on past the point of enjoyment of life, just a small indication of how precious life is. Why rob someone of that? What gives anyone, male or female, the right? And the numbers of those suffering preventable death around the world is coming down, peoples life spans are increasing, nutrition and medicine and their delivery is improving, food production has grown, we still have much work to do...

But to automatically condemn on average a million plus babies per year in just this country alone since Row... to my mind that is unconscionable.
 
Two wrongs dont make a right quickly comes to mind. Don't know about you but I can chew gum and walk at the same time. We can care about both, why just one to the exclusion of others. They are both the reality, we have to deal with reality as we find it, especially when its so tragic.

I see very few, in relation to the general population, racing to take the place of the unborn... both my parents hung on past the point of enjoyment of life, just a small indication of how precious life is. Why rob someone of that? What gives anyone, male or female, the right? And the numbers of those suffering preventable death around the world is coming down, peoples life spans are increasing, nutrition and medicine and their delivery is improving, food production has grown, we still have much work to do...

But to automatically condemn on average a million plus babies per year in just this country alone since Row... to my mind that is unconscionable.

You've avoided the question. Why hasn't the good folks of the world who cherish children so much allow 10 MILLION CHILDREN under the age of 5 TO DIE EACH YEAR? This isn't a new problem. If we can't take care of the born, why should we be stacking up exponential numbers of children who will NOT be adequately cared for?

We have a similar problem right here in the good old U.S.A. We have a substantial number of Pro-Life who cry their hearts out over all of the abortions and at the very same time are screaming at government for the misuse of their tax dollars and want to terminate or substantially reduce social services that impacts the lives of children, who can't fend for themselves, who don't have a political voice to stand up to government. To me, this is beyond hypocrisy. Save the fetuses and **** the born kid, they're on their own.

Death of the born come in so many ways and yet, it's impossible to really know how all of the deaths (individually or collectively) truly impact humanity in the long run. You can't possibly provide any kind of outcome for all of the yet to be born's impact on humanity...good, bad, or indifferent. If something never existed there is no impact.

About 20 percent of all conception are disposed of by women's bodies. Is this a third wrong for you?

And apparently you have decided that for whatever reason the yet born are somehow more valuable than the born, but more in particular women.

And apparently you have decided that "quantity of life" is more important than "quality of life".
 
Yes, that is a part of the concept as well. I now have the capacity to fully understand the true thievery that is going on here, having had the chance to grow my mind and my humanity towards my fellows.
That or saving them the trouble of struggling through life as an unwanted child. Depends on your POV, I guess.

I also sympathize for those who feel so little for themselves, how could they find their way to feel something so much more for someone else. I can not bring myself to empathize with that inability, however. Its all about choice, but like much of life, it is all about the timing of those choices. And then inexorably, the inevitable consequences of those choices.
Some people do not want to be a parent. We are better off letting them not be one.

Hey, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Simple enough of a solution.
 
You've avoided the question. Why hasn't the good folks of the world who cherish children so much allow 10 MILLION CHILDREN under the age of 5 TO DIE EACH YEAR? This isn't a new problem. If we can't take care of the born, why should we be stacking up exponential numbers of children who will NOT be adequately cared for?

We have a similar problem right here in the good old U.S.A. We have a substantial number of Pro-Life who cry their hearts out over all of the abortions and at the very same time are screaming at government for the misuse of their tax dollars and want to terminate or substantially reduce social services that impacts the lives of children, who can't fend for themselves, who don't have a political voice to stand up to government. To me, this is beyond hypocrisy. Save the fetuses and **** the born kid, they're on their own.

Death of the born come in so many ways and yet, it's impossible to really know how all of the deaths (individually or collectively) truly impact humanity in the long run. You can't possibly provide any kind of outcome for all of the yet to be born's impact on humanity...good, bad, or indifferent. If something never existed there is no impact.

About 20 percent of all conception are disposed of by women's bodies. Is this a third wrong for you?

And apparently you have decided that for whatever reason the yet born are somehow more valuable than the born, but more in particular women.

And apparently you have decided that "quantity of life" is more important than "quality of life".
No avoidance whatsoever. You just didn't like the answer. So lets say I snap my fingers, all abortions are allowed now for anybody at anytime that wants one, no even hints of disgust or murmurs about it from my side. What HAVE YOU AND YOUR SIDE done in the meantime about all these babies suffering from preventable deaths around the world? Nothing, your side is just using them as a prop for your side of the debate, plain and simple. Your side cares about as much about them as your side does the unborn.

Most of us on the Pro-life side also have a heart for the multitudes of children that are the truly unwanted byproduct of a Socialist Welfare system that has for many years and still encourages young girls, not as they should encourage to concentrate on school and at minimum graduate from high school, wait until after high school then marry and only then to have children. You know, those prudent steps that will keep them and their children from becoming one of the poverty statistics, continued sad suffering with little further incentive to do much of anything. Nope, they no longer need a man, a partner long term, they only need the government to provide for them. What kind of nonfamily building message do you think that has sent?

Now that the left has started and encourages this kind of family dysfunction, its hard to clean up the mess without just stopping it cold turkey. Perhaps we should phase it in, tell girls in middle school that the well is running/has run dry, that they will most likely have to take care of their kids some other fashion...either do something like that or else you are just continuing the dismal cycle to spiral even further downward.

Yep, a bit of tough love, because of a predicament created by the oh so caring left, unfortunately one of the only prudent solutions to the suffering and misery that would otherwise just continue on into the foreseeable future. Your side decries the hard solution that your side has forced upon society.

I dont much care for our options now either, but to just keep killing babies is certainly not the solution.

oh, and...

Dont know what you mean by a third wrong for me with the 20 percent. Explain.

And, I have not decided any such thing, I say let both live, the born and conscious just need to be responsible for what they create.

And, I havent decided anything about quantity vs quality either, but I will now. One can have both as, again, there is no necessity of an either or proposition. But by the very nature of the way you are putting this together, you are in effect saying you are deciding that so called quality is more important than quantity of life, that the born only for the reason that they were allowed to be born are somehow superior to those who have not yet been but are on their way to being born...

You think your side just gets to make all the rules concerning such matters. Who made ya'll the queens? We dont have a queendom, we have a representative democracy. Remember?
 
No avoidance whatsoever. You just didn't like the answer. So lets say I snap my fingers, all abortions are allowed now for anybody at anytime that wants one, no even hints of disgust or murmurs about it from my side. What HAVE YOU AND YOUR SIDE done in the meantime about all these babies suffering from preventable deaths around the world? Nothing, your side is just using them as a prop for your side of the debate, plain and simple. You care about as much about them as you do the unborn.

Most of us on the Pro-life side also have a heart for the multitudes of children that are the truly unwanted byproduct of a Socialist Welfare system that has for many years and still encourages young girls, not as they should encourage to concentrate on school and at minimum graduate from high school, wait until after high school then marry and only then to have children. You know, those prudent steps that will keep them and their children from becoming one of the poverty statistics, continued sad suffering with little further incentive to do much of anything. Nope, they no longer need a man, a partner long term, they only need the government to provide for them. What kind of nonfamily building message do you think that has sent?

Now that the left has started and encourages this kind of family dysfunction, its hard to clean up the mess without just stopping it cold turkey. Perhaps we should phase it in, tell girls in middle school that the well is running/has run dry, that they will most likely have to take care of their kids some other fashion...either do something like that or else you are just continuing the dismal cycle to spiral even further downward.

Yep, a bit of tough love, because of a predicament created by the oh so caring left, unfortunately one of the only prudent solutions to the suffering and misery that would otherwise just continue on into the foreseeable future. Your side decries the hard solution that your side has forced upon society.

I dont much care for our options now either, but to just keep killing babies is certainly not the solution.

oh, and...

Dont know what you mean by a third wrong for me with the 20 percent. Explain.

And, I have not decided any such thing, I say let both live, the born and conscious just need to be responsible for what they create.

And, I havent decided anything about quantity vs quality either, but I will now. One can have both as, again, there is no necessity of an either or proposition. But by the very nature of the way you are putting this together, you are in effect saying you are deciding that so called quality is more important than quantity of life, that the born only for the reason that they were allowed to be born are somehow superior to those who have not yet been but are on their way to being born...

You think your side just gets to make all the rules concerning such matters. Who made ya'll the queens? We dont have a queendom, we have a representative democracy. Remember?

I would have had to have gotten a legitimate answer before deciding whether or not I liked what the content was.

Ahhhhhh...the old "It's socialisms fault." Socialism is destroying America! Families are being torn asunder by the evils of socialism! There has been forms of socialism since the creation of the Republic of the United States of America. Perhaps you need to blame the passage of the 13th Amendment.

Tough love, huh? Really? Using a child as punishment to women who have had irresponsible sex? Right?

What makes you think that abortion isn't being responsible for a conception that is unwanted or that a woman isn't capable of providing for?

About 20% of all conceptions are eliminated by women's bodies. So what about these little victims who'll never experience the joys of life among the born?

Are you, as a man, legally or morally obligated to reproduce? Yes? No?
 
That or saving them the trouble of struggling through life as an unwanted child. Depends on your POV, I guess.


Some people do not want to be a parent. We are better off letting them not be one.

Hey, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Simple enough of a solution.

Most of us now living, even if we had parents that didn't want us particularly, have a chance to make a place for our own selves in the world. Few choose suicide, life is better than the alternative. I overcame my parents negativity, they had their first two sons die tragically and were forever marred by that... Dad would often lament, if it werent for bad luck, we would have no luck at all. You can overcome your parents and be happy. I am.

As for the folks who get pregnant and dont want to be a parent, adoption is a fine enough solution.

I will respond in kind, if you dont want children, dont get pregnant. If you get pregnant and dont want children, see that adoption choice above. I am pretty sure this would serve, along with the cutting off of aid to those who aspire to nothing more than breast feeding off the government teat, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus the need for more abortions... problem solved.
 
Most of us now living, even if we had parents that didn't want us particularly, have a chance to make a place for our own selves in the world. Few choose suicide, life is better than the alternative. I overcame my parents negativity, they had their first two sons die tragically and were forever marred by that... Dad would often lament, if it werent for bad luck, we would have no luck at all. You can overcome your parents and be happy. I am.
Sure. Living beats dying. But, it's no picnic either, especially for those trapped in poverty, single parent-land (drug addicted ones, even), neglect, abuse (especially in foster care), etc. Better to have never lived than suffer through that.

As for the folks who get pregnant and dont want to be a parent, adoption is a fine enough solution.
It used to be...but these days they keep the kid because of the government handouts.

I will respond in kind, if you dont want children, dont get pregnant. If you get pregnant and dont want children, see that adoption choice above. I am pretty sure this would serve, along with the cutting off of aid to those who aspire to nothing more than breast feeding off the government teat, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus the need for more abortions... problem solved.
All well and good. But what if someone doesn't want to carry a fetus to term? Force them? Not my idea of freedom, that.
 
Most of us now living, even if we had parents that didn't want us particularly, have a chance to make a place for our own selves in the world. Few choose suicide, life is better than the alternative. I overcame my parents negativity, they had their first two sons die tragically and were forever marred by that... Dad would often lament, if it werent for bad luck, we would have no luck at all. You can overcome your parents and be happy. I am.

As for the folks who get pregnant and dont want to be a parent, adoption is a fine enough solution.

I will respond in kind, if you dont want children, dont get pregnant. If you get pregnant and dont want children, see that adoption choice above. I am pretty sure this would serve, along with the cutting off of aid to those who aspire to nothing more than breast feeding off the government teat, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus the need for more abortions... problem solved.

No, adoption isn't a fine enough solution. CPS is full of kids who have spent most of their lives in the system.

There's so much information about the "adoption option" that you lack having.

A lot of women don't want their flesh and blood in the hands of people whom they don't know.

My comments above...are simple, straight forward, cut to the chase, but so little have I said about the big picture regarding adoption .

Minnie616 has devoted a lot of time posting information about the issues and problems associated with adoption. Maybe she'll catch this thread and throw in some valuable info on this topic.
 
Most of us now living, even if we had parents that didn't want us particularly, have a chance to make a place for our own selves in the world. Few choose suicide, life is better than the alternative. I overcame my parents negativity, they had their first two sons die tragically and were forever marred by that... Dad would often lament, if it werent for bad luck, we would have no luck at all. You can overcome your parents and be happy. I am.

As for the folks who get pregnant and dont want to be a parent, adoption is a fine enough solution.

I will respond in kind, if you dont want children, dont get pregnant. If you get pregnant and dont want children, see that adoption choice above. I am pretty sure this would serve, along with the cutting off of aid to those who aspire to nothing more than breast feeding off the government teat, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus the need for more abortions... problem solved.

Adoption I would consider the higher-road solution. It allows one to live while removing the responsibility of raising a child. But it would be tough because one would still have the see the pregnancy through and ensure there aren't any significant health problems or complications. Plus there are problems with the system that would need to be rectified. That being said, perhaps a rough childhood is better than no childhood at all.
 
All well and good. But what if someone doesn't want to carry a fetus to term? Force them? Not my idea of freedom, that.

Or destroy a human life. One or the other. Either way it's only "freedom" for one side.
 
Or destroy a human life. One or the other. Either way it's only "freedom" for one side.

It's rightly on the side of a conscious, functioning brain whose body is being used to bring forth life, not the side with an undeveloped brain, leeching life from a host. Like it or not, that is the issue.
 
It's rightly on the side of a conscious, functioning brain whose body is being used to bring forth life, not the side with an undeveloped brain, leeching life from a host. Like it or not, that is the issue.

I mean, the penalty for abortion is much less severe for the living person. But whatever. If it were equal, if it was the mother has to die or the baby has to die, I'd agree. But if it's the mother has to be inconvenienced or the baby has to die, then it's not quite equivalent anymore.
 
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