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Intentionally causing fetal deformities

So you do want government to force childbirth.

That's a loaded question. Haha. So I'll rephrase it.

Do I want the government to prohibit the direct willed killing of the unborn? Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe there is good scientific evidence to say that even the earliest embryo is a member of the species homo sapien. And I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.

Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.
 
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You're right on with this point. It is life that holds value, not necessarily what makes up life like walking and breathing. If an unborn child is a human being, he/she must have the same protections under law that you and I enjoy.

No, you clearly misunderstood this:
The pro-choice position respects life....a woman has a life too, right? And a life is more than breathing, it is the entirety of a life that has value (IMO). However this position, respecting women, leaves the decision in how to value that unborn up to the individual woman, a decision she makes based on what's best for her life and that of her family, current and future. Afterall, isnt she the one that will live with any consequences of her decision, whatever it is? And it costs pro-life people nothing..."they" dont have to pay any consequences, "their" opinion costs them nothing. How can they believe they know better than that individual woman what is best? They dont know her circumstances.

I believe in quality of life, not quantity.
 
I don't think this is a fair, or true, statement. My prolife views have cost me personally quite a bit. And I know of men and women who have quit their jobs working at Planned Parenthood or similar organizations due to their prolife views.

So their choices and sacrifices are acceptable because you approve of them, but when women make similar choices for their lives and what is important to them, you feel you are in a position to disregard them?
 
We, as a society, don't leave that kind of value decision up to individuals in other situations. What if a mother no longer values her toddler and decides to kill it? We don't say it's an ok thing for her to make that decision. So what matters, again, is whether the unborn are human beings with rights to life.

A woman that has children has other options, she can give up custody of her children to the state, she can put them up for adoption, she can let them live with their father or other relatives, etc.

Her rights do not have to be violated in any way.

OTOH if she abuses or neglects her children, then the state can use due process to remove the children from her custody...again, thru legal means.

You seem to forget that legally, children are persons with rights and the unborn are neither. A mother may not murder her children, they have a right to life.

Again, if you wish to end abortion, your arguments must be legally based. I asked you to address the issue of women's rights being violated. You did not. I asked you to provide compelling reasons why the courts should reconsider abortion or personhood for the unborn...you did not.
 
So I understand better, is the main reason you think abortion should remain legal mostly for practical reasons? Or is it that you think the unborn aren't human beings with rights to life?
Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.

It is because the unborn cannot be treated equally with the born and I object to women's rights being violated in order to entitle the unborn to the exact same rights. I do not consider the unborn equal to born persons and I do value women more. That does not mean I do not value the unborn, it means I value them less because they are not equal to born people.

Lursa said:
The unborn *have no rights that they can exercise independently.* None. Not just that the unborn are dependent, but that the rights you would accord them are completely dependent on the mother. The unborn are not equal because they have no rights that can be separated from the mother, period. That intrinsic, specific dependency proves that they are not equal. If they cannot exercise *any* rights at all independently (that are not completely supported by another, the mother), how can they possibly be equal?

Many pro-life supporters are not so forthright as to honestly state their stance here. (Some do, but it's not common. Most avoid it.)
 
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That's a loaded question. Haha. So I'll rephrase it.

Do I want the government to prohibit the direct willed killing of the unborn? Yes.

Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.

So, please tell us how you morally or ethically support the violation of women's rights that would be required for the govt to forbid elective abortion? Yes, you chose to *****foot around writing it outright...why is that?

Perhaps because you, like many pro-life supporters, choose not to think about the impacts on women's lives if the govt forced them to remain pregnant.

Then please explain you justify the violations to women's rights and why you value the same rights more for the unborn instead? Why you take self-determination and liberty (The positive enjoyment of social, political, or economic rights and privileges)
and due process and privacy and even life away from women, making their rights secondary to those same proposed rights of the unborn?

A life is more than just breathing...why should women sacrifice some or all that make's up that life against their will for the unborn?
 
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Do I want the government to prohibit the direct willed killing of the unborn? Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe there is good scientific evidence to say that even the earliest embryo is a member of the species homo sapien. And I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.

Of course the unborn of human women are Homo sapiens. Who disputes that?

However please feel free to provide links to this proof:

I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.
 
That's a loaded question. Haha. So I'll rephrase it.

Do I want the government to prohibit the direct willed killing of the unborn? Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe there is good scientific evidence to say that even the earliest embryo is a member of the species homo sapien. And I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.

Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.
You've ignored my response in #345 why so? Is it because you haven't really looked into the topic of personhood? It's an important if not the most important thing in the abortion debate.
 
That's a loaded question. Haha. So I'll rephrase it.

Do I want the government to prohibit the direct willed killing of the unborn? Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe there is good scientific evidence to say that even the earliest embryo is a member of the species homo sapien. And I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.

Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.

Firstly, Nobody has denied that a female human and a male human can beget anything other than another human when reproducing.

Alrighty then, let's get started...

So in order for government to force women to give birth, and that's what you're advocating for, women will first have to be known to have conceived.

A little background stuff...

Most conceptions are given birth to. Most pro-choice women would most likely not have an abortion, but don't want the lose the ability to have an abortion "if they feel it necessary", or their fundamental rights under the Constitution be compromised, because it could impact their life and/or long term health by government having controlling interest in their reproductive roles.

Well over 90% of abortions are performed at 12 weeks and under (60% of those are 10 weeks and under, which means the embryo is about the size of a kidney bean). So at those stages, there is very little neural or organ development, no ability to be sentient or aware that it exist. It experiences no pain. And any other stages aborted are usually because of the health or life of the woman is in jeopardy or the embryo or fetus is damaged significantly. Or in latter stages, it could be dead and pose a threat to the woman.

In your world...

But before I get to the nuts and bolts, I'm curious...

You claim that there is "Philosophic evidence the yet to be born "deserves" the equal protection to that of the born? And what might such evidence be? Any such existing "philosophical evidence" would have to be so compelling that it would actually force the Supreme Court to overturn every decision it's ever made regarding reproductive rights for women. Thus it would significantly impact our current Constitution.

Back to the nuts and bolts...

If a conception is known about - then will be necessary for pregnant women to be closely monitored throughout the gestation process for nine months by government. I suspect that a "new government department" (Maybe the something like the "US Reproductive Monitoring Bureau") would be necessary and involve employing a lot of people at the federal and state levels, but certainly local authorities would somehow be the loop. (How will the taxpayer's respond to this? Well, especially "conservative taxpayers".)

But none of the aforementioned can happen until there's a Constitutional revision. It will be 100% necessary to diminish or dismantle women's rights to "equal protection" under the law, end prohibition of state's inability to intervene in a woman's right to life, liberty, and property, and by doing so, the due process clause now become void and null. And it's been establish over the last 100 years that "Right to Privacy", although not in black and white in the Constitution is "Inherent" within several Amendments, which if it didn't exist, our Constitution would collapse. Thus, women's "right to privacy" will be expunged (along with medical providers).

In order to give the same protection to the yet to be born will invoke many problems known has "unintended consequences". Before you automatically decide that a yet to be born is somehow worthy of personhood rights, I found close to fifty individual and social "Unintended Consequences" of giving personhood rights to the yet to be born - after a fairly lengthy time of doing research. It suggest that it might be an enlightening investment of time for you to do the same.

And if you are ever in a situation where you have to choose between saving your spouse and a fetus, you'll have to make the effort to give equal consideration to both. In other words, what criteria, or list of pros and cons will you use to choose between the two?

So in the end, in your world, women are not equal to the yet to be born and they certainly have no equality with men, because men can't be subjected to "nearly" all of the Constitutional pitfalls women must endure.

That's slightly it. There's so much more involved.
 
I haven't seen it yet but, have you listed any criteria for personhood? It's unwise in my mind, to start calling everyone's else's criteria arbitrary when you have yet to present your own. What definition are you working with?

You've ignored my response in #345 why so? Is it because you haven't really looked into the topic of personhood? It's an important if not the most important thing in the abortion debate.

I agree that the crux of the abortion debate has to do with personhood - from a legal standpoint.

But I think there are 2 separate issues. We spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on the legality of abortion (which clearly is heavily attached to the personhood issue). The reality is that if abortions were illegal, they would still happen in great numbers. An underground for abortion pills would open up quickly to fill that void. Frankly access to abortion (albeit less safe for the woman)might actually increase for some.

So I wish the abortion debate was more pragmatically focused to actually help drastically decrease abortion rates. I would like the focus to be on preventing unwanted pregnancy and encouraging an atmosphere where unwanted pregnancy into a wanted pregnancy.
 
You're right on with this point. It is life that holds value, not necessarily what makes up life like walking and breathing. If an unborn child is a human being, he/she must have the same protections under law that you and I enjoy.



We, as a society, don't leave that kind of value decision up to individuals in other situations. What if a mother no longer values her toddler and decides to kill it? We don't say it's an ok thing for her to make that decision. So what matters, again, is whether the unborn are human beings with rights to life.



I don't think this is a fair, or true, statement. My prolife views have cost me personally quite a bit. And I know of men and women who have quit their jobs working at Planned Parenthood or similar organizations due to their prolife views.

So I understand better, is the main reason you think abortion should remain legal mostly for practical reasons? Or is it that you think the unborn aren't human beings with rights to life?

No, the unborn are not human beings.. legally .. yet. as such, the rights of the woman overrides that of the fetus... including keeping the fetus to full term and giving birth.
 
Hey, maybe we could have a conversation about some **** that really happens in the real world. You know, outside the conservative fantasy factory?

Maybe you should start a thread that seeks to understand whether it's OK to kill your already born child if god demands it. The irony here is that most of the pro-life crowd would answer yes and the question is no less based in fantasy than yours is.

Rather than be accused of avoiding such an "important" question, though, I will answer that the fetus, at the time it's a fetus (ie., pre-birth) is completely at the woman's disposal. If she desires to harm it, she is within her right. No woman harms her fetus for fun, though. Only as a form of self preservation, which is perfectly legal, reasonable and moral.
 
Some basic irrefutable facts:

1) Abortions will always happen, whether legal or not, whether society condones of them or not.

2) Pro-lifers are going to have a hard time justifying forcing pregnancies onto women who were raped, victims of incest, or if their pregnancies have life threatening complications. The fact that one abortion can be murder while another isn't, is a glaringly unresolved contradiction.

3) With no auxiliary plan for how to care for so many more unwanted children, and no real justification for why a woman's self-determination and constitutional rights should be overridden by her own pregnancy other than "just because" reasoning, nobody's going to be convinced.

The whole "God wants it this way" argument is non-sense. There's nothing in the Bible that forbids abortion. Abortion was common all throughout the Middle Ages, and even during the most intense Church radicalism (like the inquisition) abortion was never outlawed. The religious excuses don't stand.
 
Some basic irrefutable facts:

1) Abortions will always happen, whether legal or not, whether society condones of them or not.

So will rapes, murders, assaults, theft, extortion, and every other thing in the country that is illegal.

2) Pro-lifers are going to have a hard time justifying forcing pregnancies onto women who were raped, victims of incest, or if their pregnancies have life threatening complications. The fact that one abortion can be murder while another isn't, is a glaringly unresolved contradiction.

Pro-lifers are commonly for a rape exception and almost always for an exception for life threatening complications. It is a contradiction to have an exception for rape, but it's not like you will accept it either way.

3) With no auxiliary plan for how to care for so many more unwanted children, and no real justification for why a woman's self-determination and constitutional rights should be overridden by her own pregnancy other than "just because" reasoning, nobody's going to be convinced.

Good thing pro-life people have more than "just because" reasoning then.
 
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It is life that holds value, not necessarily what makes up life like walking and breathing.
All life?

If an unborn child is a human being, he/she must have the same protections under law that you and I enjoy.
See question above.

We, as a society, don't leave that kind of value decision up to individuals in other situations.
Sure we do, to some individuals. Did you get a vote to go to war in Iraq?

What if a mother no longer values her toddler and decides to kill it?
You have to ask?

So what matters, again, is whether the unborn are human beings with rights to life.
No still not.

My prolife views have cost me personally quite a bit.
Such as? Clearly you are willing to pay it, so kudos to you. Just do not force your views on others.

And I know of men and women who have quit their jobs working at Planned Parenthood or similar organizations due to their prolife views.
Good for them. Living your life according to your beliefs is noble.

So I understand better, is the main reason you think abortion should remain legal mostly for practical reasons?
No, because there is no real basis, reason or authority to make it illegal.

Or is it that you think the unborn aren't human beings with rights to life?
If they were this issue would not be an issue.
 
That's a loaded question.
No, you are just afraid to give an honest answer.

Because I believe there is good scientific evidence to say that even the earliest embryo is a member of the species homo sapien.
No **** Sherlock. You came up with that all by yourself?

And I believe that there is good philosophic evidence that the unborn are human beings who deserve the same protection under the law as you and I.
Yet you can not offer a single well thought out reason.

Why do think, morally or ethically, that the unborn are not human beings who deserve those protections? Help me understand your perspective a little.
For the same reason we accept people dying as collateral damage in war.
 
So will rapes, murders, assaults, theft, extortion, and every other thing in the country that is illegal.
Now then, can you in any way quantify how would the incidence of those crimes change if the laws prohibiting them were repealed? Can you say with any certainty that those laws do not serve as a deterrent at all? Of course not since to even consider such thing is outright moronic, especially in light of the fact that there is ample evidence that making abortion illegal does not deter it. So then, that only leaves the question why would you ask such a stupid question?
 
Now then, can you in any way quantify how would the incidence of those crimes change if the laws prohibiting them were repealed? Can you say with any certainty that those laws do not serve as a deterrent at all? Of course not since to even consider such thing is outright moronic, especially in light of the fact that there is ample evidence that making abortion illegal does not deter it. So then, that only leaves the question why would you ask such a stupid question?

Are you joking? The number of abortions increased dramatically in the years after Roe v. Wade. It was only a few years ago that we managed to get back to pre-legalization numbers. If you think a 50% increase is not a huge increase, well, ahem, I don't know what to tell you.
 
Are you joking? The number of abortions increased dramatically in the years after Roe v. Wade. It was only a few years ago that we managed to get back to pre-legalization numbers. If you think a 50% increase is not a huge increase, well, ahem, I don't know what to tell you.

So, you think you have the actual numbers if illegal abortions that happened pre R v W?

Kindly tell me where you get those stats. We know when the illegal abortions cause damage or death to the mother.
 
How can the unborn be granted leeway from harm when it is not granted rights? Would you not violate the woman's rights by restricting how she can behave towards the unborn? Is the premise not that the woman has control over her body and thus can kill her unborn child? If so, why can't she ingest whatever she feels like?

How is it morally consistent to say you can kill it, but don't harm it and leave it alive?

"This is America all right and in America if a man wants to beat his own dog its his business."
Same mentality.
 
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