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The Question of Jake or John [W:35]

FutureIncoming

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The Question of Jake or John
(fiction, including fictional persons)

Once upon a near-future time, there was a pair of identical twin brothers named Jacques and Johnathan. Their French mother and American father agreed that one of the boys deserved to have a fine French name --but as they grew up, everyone simply called them Jake and John.

Identical twins exist in degrees of similarity; some are easy to tell apart (a mole on the skin, say), and some are very difficult to tell apart, especially if they deliberately groom and dress themselves the same way. Jake and John were the latter sort, and delighted in pulling pranks that often caused both to be punished equally, but only half as much as was deserved, because no one knew which of them was really the guilty party, and which was innocent. (We are ignoring fingerprints, footprints, and other specialized ID methods in this fiction.)

Eventually the boys became old enough to learn to drive an automobile. At first they were cautious and drove wrecklessly, but one day one of them became overconfident and drove recklessly. There was a truly terrible accident, witnessed and reported by someone who had been passed at high speed just before the wreck.

The emergency crew that reached the scene of the accident found both boys unconscious. One had a badly crushed spine and multiple broken ribs that caused significant internal organ damage; the other had a fractured skull and several relatively minor additional injuries. Both were rushed to the hospital's Intensive Care Unit. Eventually the prognosis was determined: The young man with the fractured skull was brain-dead, and the other, comatose, would never walk again and likely would be bedridden due to the internal organ damage.

Or would he? As it happened, this hospital was in a large city and had in residence a world-famous neurosurgeon, Doctor Frank N. Stine. He had been involved in determining the prognosis, and now he proposed a bold idea, that a double head transplant be performed. The good head could be attached to the good body, and eventually a complete recovery would be possible. The dead head could be attached to the ruined body, and then be given a decent burial. The case was ideal because they were identical twins, as perfectly matched donor and recipient as could be wished.

The parents, recognizing this as the best hope for their surviving son, agreed, and the surgery was performed without incident. Some weeks pass and the young man wakes from the coma. But who is that person, Jake or John?

===============

It may seem like a silly Question, but as far as the Overall Abortion Debate is concerned, the answer has huge ramifications. For abortion opponents, a human body alone suffices to qualify as a person, and a male human body that masses 100kg might have a head massing only 4kg --a 24:1 or 25:1 mass ratio (depending on how the calc is done), making the head basically ignore-able. Therefore, for abortion opponents, the Answer to that Question is, "No matter which one his head claims to be, he is actually the other one, the donor of the body."

For pro-choicers a person is a mind, and whoever the young man claims to be, that is who he is. The human body is irrelevant to the concept of personhood, and abortion is allowable because unborn humans don't have minds worth talking about. If the mind of an adult pig is measurably more capable than the mind of a human infant, yet pigs can be routinely killed because they are mere animals, not persons, and if dolphins can be declared to be persons because their minds are significantly even-more capable than pig-minds, then the barely-functional minds of unborn humans are just as much non-persons as their barely-functional bodies. That is, abortion only targets mere animals, not persons.

The situation is that simple.

This material is declared to be Public Domain, and can be freely copied/posted anywhere.
 
Interesting story. A logical person doesn't even need this to base their decision on. In the United States, fetuses or zygotes do not have rights. Therefore, they do not have an expected right to life. It really is that simple as well. Perhaps a pro-birther will read it and change their mind, but I highly doubt it.
 
Interesting story. A logical person doesn't even need this to base their decision on. In the United States, fetuses or zygotes do not have rights. Therefore, they do not have an expected right to life. It really is that simple as well. Perhaps a pro-birther will read it and change their mind, but I highly doubt it.
Thanks for the response. To the extent the tale causes even one abortion opponent to think before spewing the typical/knee-jerk blather about "human=person", it will have been worth it.
 
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I think your representations of the views on both sides are flawed. Abortion opponents do sometimes present the foetus as being just as human as a born person but that’s obvious not based on the body mass alone but the singular whole of that being. The idea that any human could be taken apart and the humanity would be transferred to whichever part has most mass is ridiculous.

Equally, few if any pro-choice advocates don’t hold the kind of position you describe, that the mind of a foetus or even the being of a foetus has no value at all and nor are they so casual about abortion as a result of that. It’s perfectly possible to recognise the humanity of a foetus yet still conclude that the pro-choice position, especially a conditional one, is the least worst option.

Your story raises a philosophical question for which there is no easy or right answer. That actually demonstrates part of the difficulty with the whole concept of abortion, that in truth there is no clear answer as to exactly what a foetus is at any given point in its development, when it is alive, human or conscious are all impossible to definitively define of establish. All of the people trying to establish a definitive answer to these questions to reach a definitive conclusion to the question are on a hiding to nothing and only serve to stir up continuous circular arguments that help nobody at all.
 
I think your representations of the views on both sides are flawed.
It is possible that not all pro-choicers think that persons are minds, but from the way abortion opponents argue, that group is semi-forced to claim "human=person". That's because the Constitution uses the word "person" throughout, and doesn't use the word "human" even once. Thus persons have rights, like right-to-life, and only humans that are also persons get those rights. The unborn are absolutely human, but only their personhood matters, with respect to the Overall Abortion Debate.

Abortion opponents do sometimes present the foetus as being just as human as a born person but that’s obvious not based on the body mass alone but the singular whole of that being.
There is no "sometimes" about that. Various silly pro-choicers sometimes deny the human-ness of the unborn, but the facts are quite clearly in favor of their human-ness. In more-accurate fact, the unborn are actually more human than most walking-about humans. That's because the amniotic sac is a fairly sterile environment, while 90% of the living cells in the average walking-about human body are bacterial, not human.

The idea that any human could be taken apart and the humanity would be transferred to whichever part has most mass is ridiculous.
In computer science there is a classic observation abbreviated as GIGO, "garbage in, garbage out". Logic doesn't care in the least what data it works with, but if the input data is bad, the output data will also be bad. In this case the input data, from abortion opponents, is that "human=person" --a claim they make whenever they talk about an unborn zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus. For the first 6 weeks or so, the unborn entity has in-essence no brain at all; a clump of neurons begins to fire during the 6th week. Well, if they want to ban abortion, then its opponents must claim that the brainless body is as important as the brainy body --and therefore the existence of the brain is actually irrelevant to the anti-abortion argument --to that argument, the body IS the person!

Equally, few if any pro-choice advocates don’t hold the kind of position you describe, that the mind of a foetus or even the being of a foetus has no value at all and nor are they so casual about abortion as a result of that.
There are plenty of people on both sides of the Debate who have some of the relevant information, but not all of the relevant information. There is a two-part claim that a great many people are aware of, leading to the concerns you mentioned, yet many don't know that the claims are actually utterly false. First is the notion that "intrinsic value" exists, and second the notion that humans have it. All valuations are actually Subjective, Arbitrary, and Relative. Consider any emergency where it is announced, "Save the women and children first!" --and start wondering where went the so-called "intrinsic value" of the men who used to be male children, for proof.

It’s perfectly possible to recognise the humanity of a foetus yet still conclude that the pro-choice position, especially a conditional one, is the least worst option.
It is perfectly possible to recognize the humanity of the unborn and conclude it doesn't matter in the slightest. If a giant asteroid crashes into the Earth and wipes us out, what then of our egotistical self-valuation?
 
Your story raises a philosophical question for which there is no easy or right answer.
FALSE. The truth is simple, that abortion opponents want to muddy the water as much as possible, in order to convince you that a mindless mass of cells (which a blastocyst, at least, exactly is) is as valuable as Einstein, and follow-up with nonsense like this:

That actually demonstrates part of the difficulty with the whole concept of abortion, that in truth there is no clear answer as to exactly what a foetus is at any given point in its development
FALSE. It is a human entity at all stages of development, from zygote to birth. Very often (more than 60% of the time) it is a flawed entity (such as by having fatally defective DNA), and will die before or at birth.


, when it is alive,
There is no question that the unborn entity is alive, at least until it dies or/and gets born.

There is no question that the unborn entity is 100% human.

or conscious
I invite you to catch a praying mantis (the insect) and look into its non-faceted eyes. That bug is aware! For much of a pregnancy an unborn human will have a much larger brain than that bug, and there is no reason to think it cannot be aware. However! Some types of awareness are more important than others. Have you noticed how easy it can be to startle a cat that has its entire attention focused on something? Therefore, consider the mirror test, and note that even year-old humans cannot pass that test for a very important type of awareness. Therefore the unborn can't pass it either, any more than the average ordinary animal can't pass it. And we have little objection to killing many types of average ordinary animals.


are all impossible to definitively define of establish.
FALSE. See above.

All of the people trying to establish a definitive answer to these questions to reach a definitive conclusion to the question are on a hiding to nothing and only serve to stir up continuous circular arguments that help nobody at all.
That is a nonsensical statement that deserves a thorough rewrite, if what I wrote above hasn't already rendered it moot.
 
In computer science there is a classic observation abbreviated as GIGO, "garbage in, garbage out". Logic doesn't care in the least what data it works with, but if the input data is bad, the output data will also be bad. In this case the input data, from abortion opponents, is that "human=person" --a claim they make whenever they talk about an unborn zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus. For the first 6 weeks or so, the unborn entity has in-essence no brain at all; a clump of neurons begins to fire during the 6th week. Well, if they want to ban abortion, then its opponents must claim that the brainless body is as important as the brainy body --and therefore the existence of the brain is actually irrelevant to the anti-abortion argument --to that argument, the body IS the person!
But the early zygote doesn’t have a body either. The cells that make it up at that stage will multiply in to different cells to make up both brain and body. As I said, the argument of personhood for the foetus isn’t based on any physical characteristics but on the continuity of the singular being from conception, though birth and beyond. Basically, the metaphor you’re trying to apply doesn’t work.

First is the notion that "intrinsic value" exists, and second the notion that humans have it. All valuations are actually Subjective, Arbitrary, and Relative. Consider any emergency where it is announced, "Save the women and children first!" --and start wondering where went the so-called "intrinsic value" of the men who used to be male children, for proof.
I didn’t say intrinsic value for that very reason. All such valuations are subjective but I still suggest it’s rare for anyone to believe the “value” of any foetus to be unequivocally zero (though some pro-choice arguments seek to lean away from any idea of the value of the foetus because of the complications it brings to the question).
 
That is a nonsensical statement that deserves a thorough rewrite, if what I wrote above hasn't already rendered it moot.
Harsh. It’s not perfect but it does parse correctly. The simplest form of my opinion on all this though can be put as follows; The only right answer to the question “Are you pro-life or pro-choice?” is “No”.
 
Your story raises a philosophical question for which there is no easy or right answer. That actually demonstrates part of the difficulty with the whole concept of abortion, that in truth there is no clear answer as to exactly what a foetus is at any given point in its development, when it is alive, human or conscious are all impossible to definitively define of establish. All of the people trying to establish a definitive answer to these questions to reach a definitive conclusion to the question are on a hiding to nothing and only serve to stir up continuous circular arguments that help nobody at all.

This, clearly.

Anyone that believes they can eliminate moral objections to abortion from people who specifically elevate 'humans' (only) of any stage of development "because" of intrinsic or spiritual or other beliefs will not be persuaded by science or fact alone.

"Legally" however, the issue is already confirmed, abortion is legal.
 
Where ever the functioning brain is, that is the identity.

An individual can get all sorts of transplants and keep their own identity because identity remains with the brain.

So, FIC, who do you think the patient is.....the body or the brain?
 
Where ever the functioning brain is, that is the identity.

An individual can get all sorts of transplants and keep their own identity because identity remains with the brain.

So, FIC, who do you think the patient is.....the body or the brain?

How can anyone think that these sci-fi scenarios make any sense to or matter in the least to the pro-life supporters that can only focus on 'you are killing a babeeeeeee!!'?

How do they speak *at all* to the moral, ethical, religious objections that they have?

As noted, the legal aspects are already confirmed.
 
There is no relevance to this theoretical and abortion.

A fatal pathophysiology at the end of an organism's lifespan is not comparable to the normal physiological state near the beginning of an organism's lifespan such that the neurological system hasn't fully formed yet.
 
Another clear and good point to bring up FI when debating pro lifers who haven't really thought there position out. It just doesn't make sense at all to equate bodies to personhood as that would lead to problems. I'm quite sure I missed this somewhere on your site, How would you define the mind to being with? Would it be measured differently in true artificial intelligences in the future?
 
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But the early zygote doesn’t have a body either. The cells that make it up at that stage will multiply in to different cells to make up both brain and body. As I said, the argument of personhood for the foetus isn’t based on any physical characteristics but on the continuity of the singular being from conception, though birth and beyond. Basically, the metaphor you’re trying to apply doesn’t work.
The word "body" is quite generic; guess how many hit you get if you search for "bodies in the Solar System"? So the single cell of a just-fertilized ovum has a body, along with any other stage of growth. And so as previously mentioned, since only persons have Constitutional protection, abortion opponents must claim that the human body, at any stage of development, brainless or not, is a person.

I didn’t say intrinsic value for that very reason. All such valuations are subjective but I still suggest it’s rare for anyone to believe the “value” of any foetus to be unequivocally zero (though some pro-choice arguments seek to lean away from any idea of the value of the foetus because of the complications it brings to the question).
The key point is that if all valuations are subjective, then the subjective value of Zero or even negative, assigned to an unborn human by a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant with that human, is as valid as the value assigned by abortion opponents --except that they are not in charge of that unborn human. They COULD be, if they were willing to pay all the costs associated with that human life until its 18th or even 21st birthday, but extremely few of them are willing to put that much money where their mouths are.
 
Another clear and good point to bring up FI when debating pro lifers who haven't really thought there position out. It just doesn't make sense at all to equate bodies to personhood as that would lead to problems. I'm quite sure I missed this somewhere on your site, How would you define the mind to being with? Would it be measured differently in true artificial intelligences in the future?

I'ts not on the blog site yet; I wanted to post it to get feedback that might reveal a weakness to edit. And there is, so, after the horizontal line in that first post of this Thread, the first block of text should be something like this:

It may seem like a silly Question, but as far as the Overall Abortion Debate is concerned, the answer has huge ramifications. For abortion opponents, whenever they talk about an unborn zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus, all stages of growth are equal and must be allowed to survive. So, note that for the first 6 weeks or so, the unborn entity has in-essence no brain at all; a clump of neurons begins to fire during the 6th week. Well, if they want to ban abortion, then its opponents must claim that the brainless body is as important as the brainy body --and therefore the existence of the brain is actually irrelevant to the anti-abortion argument --to that argument, only "human life" matters, except that the Constitution doesn't use the word "human" even once; it only uses the word "person", and only grants protections to persons. Therefore, to abortion opponents the body must be the person! The head is basically ignore-able, and so the Answer to that Question is, "No matter which one his head claims to be, he is actually the other one, the donor of the body."
 
This, clearly.

Anyone that believes they can eliminate moral objections to abortion from people who specifically elevate 'humans' (only) of any stage of development "because" of intrinsic or spiritual or other beliefs will not be persuaded by science or fact alone.

"Legally" however, the issue is already confirmed, abortion is legal.

Their beliefs don't matter, when the law forces them to state their beliefs in a manner that turns out to be obvious nonsense. See the rewrite of part of the first-message text in Msg #15.
 
Where ever the functioning brain is, that is the identity.

An individual can get all sorts of transplants and keep their own identity because identity remains with the brain.

So, FIC, who do you think the patient is.....the body or the brain?

The answer to that question should be as obvious as the only correct Answer to my Decapitation Question:
It starts by noting that medical researchers are just about ready to start doing head transplants. So, if you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical lab, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-the-person?
 
There is no relevance to this theoretical and abortion.

A fatal pathophysiology at the end of an organism's lifespan is not comparable to the normal physiological state near the beginning of an organism's lifespan such that the neurological system hasn't fully formed yet.
Comparable or not, only personhood matters to the Constitution. So please see the rewrite of part of the first-message text, in Msg #15.
 
The answer to that question should be as obvious as the only correct Answer to my Decapitation Question:

Quote Originally Posted by FutureIncoming View Post

It starts by noting that medical researchers are just about ready to start doing head transplants. So, if you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical lab, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-the-person?

Good Lord, you are really out there.

Show me where this is about ready to happen with anticipated success.

Have you ever taken any anatomy, physiology or any such courses? ANy medical back ground?

Your theoretical are just silly.

Trying to rationalize your scenarios into some sort of abortion context is just nuts.

Good luck. You just look silly.
 
Comparable or not, only personhood matters to the Constitution. So please see the rewrite of part of the first-message text, in Msg #15.

Nothing matters to the Constitution. It lacks the ability to think.;)
 
Their beliefs don't matter, when the law forces them to state their beliefs in a manner that turns out to be obvious nonsense. See the rewrite of part of the first-message text in Msg #15.

Then the matter of abortion in America is settled, as Peter King already told you.

And any means of addressing changes to the current laws must be framed in a legal manner as well.

So... why do we need to address your perspectives on the issue of abortion in America? Because they appear to be irrelevant.
 
Then the matter of abortion in America is settled, as Peter King already told you.
If that was the case, then why does the abortion debate still exist?

People do want to change it, but most are basing their objections on personal or religious or moral reasons.

I continually ask those people what compelling (legal of course) reasons they would offer to the courts to get them to reconsider previous decisions. I get almost no replies.

IMO it comes down to 2 things:

--people ignoring, not understanding, or not caring about the actual persons affected by pregnancy, and their rights.

--considering the unborn equal to the born, or not.

Both are subjective and can be discussed. People can change their opinions and their minds. It's possible but it doesnt happen much here :)
 
What a stupid argument.

Yup.

This thread has done one thing. It made me for once find common ground with Paleocon and JayDubya.:lamo
 
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