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Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after year'

Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
If women weren't getting pregnant less I bet the number of abortions would around the same. Women's views towards abortion hasn't improved at all and I see no indication they are less likely to abort.

The left calls a lower reproduction due to birth control progress, but I consider it standing still.
Click to expand...

Again, the way to prevent abortion is through accessibility and availability of long term birth control. Adding an option for men would (IMHO) really cause a great drop. When both men and women use birth control, the abortion rates will drop.

Now Henrin, do you ask yourself WHY the you are not seeing a bigger decrease (other than "lower reproduction")?

I can shed some light for you. What the pro-lifers call "inconvenience" are real life MAJOR issues. The woman worries about getting and keeping a job to SUPPORT HER FAMILY. Getting and maintaining medical care for her family. Keeping her family safe and secure. Helping and nurturing her family. If a woman already has a born child she barely can support.....has trouble maintaining health care for herself or her family....has trouble keeping child safe and secure and educated.....Has difficulting buying basic necessities for family....do you think she will WANT to bring a child into the world? Really?

Again either improved accessibility or availability of long term birth control options
or

Help turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one. But the right insists on moralistic fingerwagging and such rather than figuring out the best way to help turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one.

But slutshaming and fingerwagging are just plain ineffectual.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
Forty to forty-six percent is not that much of an improvement, but fine, I was wrong.
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The poll is based on asking a very broad question: are you pro choice or pro-life. Many people are pro-choice but they would never have an abortion, I know several myself.

Here's an interesting poll, just to put perspective on where the pro-choice opinion begins to wane and switches over to being heavily pro-life.

18-538-chart1-blog480.png
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

year2late said:
Again, the way to prevent abortion is through accessibility and availability of long term birth control. Adding an option for men would (IMHO) really cause a great drop. When both men and women use birth control, the abortion rates will drop.

Now Henrin, do you ask yourself WHY the you are not seeing a bigger decrease (other than "lower reproduction")?

I can shed some light for you. What the pro-lifers call "inconvenience" are real life MAJOR issues. The woman worries about getting and keeping a job to SUPPORT HER FAMILY. Getting and maintaining medical care for her family. Keeping her family safe and secure. Helping and nurturing her family. If a woman already has a born child she barely can support.....has trouble maintaining health care for herself or her family....has trouble keeping child safe and secure and educated.....Has difficulting buying basic necessities for family....do you think she will WANT to bring a child into the world? Really?

Again either improved accessibility or availability of long term birth control options
or

Help turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one. But the right insists on moralistic fingerwagging and such rather than figuring out the best way to help turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one.

But slutshaming and fingerwagging are just plain ineffectual.
Click to expand...

While it's all fine and good to lower the chances a women will abort there is also the part of the equation where women want to abort less often. You don't reform a rapist by locking him in a room alone, and you don't truly change things when it comes to abortion by making women never face the situations where they are the most likely to kill. When they feel less inclined to kill when found in those situations that is when progress will truly be made, but as long as we rely on medical advancement and really not much else to lower abortions we will never truly be solving the problem. All we do by advancing birth control at this point is lower birth rates.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
If women weren't getting pregnant less I bet the number of abortions would around the same. Women's views towards abortion hasn't improved at all and I see no indication they are less likely to abort.

The left calls a lower reproduction due to birth control progress, but I consider it standing still.
Click to expand...

Really? What about all those women that are pro-life? There are plenty.

There are also those women that are pro-choice but would never personally have an abortion.

There are also womenn that are pro-life that when they get pregnant, find that they need to have an abortion, and do.

Abortiion is an individual decision based on 'need'. Practically, realistically, that is what affects the abortion rate. And with better bc, there is less need.

But your attempt to disrespect women as a whole is noted.

(And nobody cares what you want in the overall reproductive rate)
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Lursa said:
Really? What about all those women that are pro-life? There are plenty.

There are also those women that are pro-choice but would never personally have an abortion.

There are also womenn that are pro-life that when they get pregnant, find that they need to have an abortion, and do.

Abortiion is an individual decision based on 'need'. Practically, realistically, that is what affects the abortion rate. And with better bc, there is less need.

But your attempt to disrespect women as a whole is noted.

(And nobody cares what you want in the overall reproductive rate)
Click to expand...

Here's a telling chart that refutes the claim that pregnancies ending in abortion is not in decline.

27_fig1.jpg


35% drop over the past 20-plus years is a good thing, if someone is truly pro-life.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
While it's all fine and good to lower the chances a women will abort there is also the part of the equation where women want to abort less often. You don't reform a rapist by locking him in a room alone, and you don't truly change things when it comes to abortion by making women never face the situations where they are the most likely to kill. When they feel less inclined to kill when found in those situations that is when progress will truly be made, but as long as we rely on medical advancement and really not much else to lower abortions we will never truly be solving the problem. All we do by advancing birth control at this point is lower birth rates.
Click to expand...

As someone else said, if you really want to lower birth rates, abortion rates, you have to lower unwanted pregnancy rates instead of just pregnancy rates as a whole. Most women want to plan to have a child, as do many men. What would really help is to find a birth control method for men that works similar to birth control pills or IUD or a shot for women. The only two methods currently available for men require some control and responsibility, as well as losing some of the "good feelings" that some men don't want to give up. But if men could get a shot or implant like women can to give them a short term (months to a few years) of sterilization that they could end if they were ready to be a parent, then this would help lower unintended pregnancies.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

roguenuke said:
As someone else said, if you really want to lower birth rates, abortion rates, you have to lower unwanted pregnancy rates instead of just pregnancy rates as a whole. Most women want to plan to have a child, as do many men. What would really help is to find a birth control method for men that works similar to birth control pills or IUD or a shot for women. The only two methods currently available for men require some control and responsibility, as well as losing some of the "good feelings" that some men don't want to give up. But if men could get a shot or implant like women can to give them a short term (months to a few years) of sterilization that they could end if they were ready to be a parent, then this would help lower unintended pregnancies.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and when sperm is being killed I can see the birth rate going below half of replacement rates.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

calamity said:
Here's a telling chart that refutes the claim that pregnancies ending in abortion is not in decline.

27_fig1.jpg


35% drop over the past 20-plus years is a good thing, if someone is truly pro-life.
Click to expand...

To be fair the years that topped off at 39% was spike years. If it was a longer trend than just a few years after the ruling it would mean more.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
Yeah, and when sperm is being killed I can see the birth rate going below half of replacement rates.
Click to expand...

So what? It is better to have quality of life than quantity of life. This planet could use a little bit lowering of the birth rates all around, particularly unwanted births. It could help get people, especially businesses and government to actually encourage responsible births, responsible childmaking decisions, for those who can afford them and want them rather than seeming to punish those who try to be responsible. I'm willing to have another child and my husband's major complaint is only how much we make even together (although we are easily middle class right now). Children are expensive and we don't want to burden others with those expenses. So maybe we should look at why they are so expensive and why people are unable to make enough to afford more than one or two children, if that, even those well educated/decently employed.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

roguenuke said:
So what? It is better to have quality of life than quantity of life. This planet could use a little bit lowering of the birth rates all around, particularly unwanted births. It could help get people, especially businesses and government to actually encourage responsible births, responsible childmaking decisions, for those who can afford them and want them rather than seeming to punish those who try to be responsible. I'm willing to have another child and my husband's major complaint is only how much we make even together (although we are easily middle class right now). Children are expensive and we don't want to burden others with those expenses. So maybe we should look at why they are so expensive and why people are unable to make enough to afford more than one or two children, if that, even those well educated/decently employed.
Click to expand...

Do you actually think people naturally want enough children to keep the human population at stable numbers? As men become less attached to old ways of thinking they become less interested in children, and as women gain ground in society they also become less interested in children. The only reason birth rates were anywhere near what they were is because of social influence and lack of control.

Oh and just so you know, 80+ countries are below replacement rates. If you were to give people a way to stop the sperm then the number of births would plummet.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
Do you actually think people naturally want enough children to keep the human population at stable numbers? As men become less attached to old ways of thinking they become less interested in children, and as women gain ground in society they also become less interested in children. The only reason birth rates were anywhere near what they were is because of social influence and lack of control.

Oh and just so you know, 80+ countries are below replacement rates. If you were to give people a way to stop the sperm then the number of births would plummet.
Click to expand...

The instinct to reproduce is the strongest in any living organism. People will never stop having sex, people will continue to have kids, intentionally or accidentally, lol.

And societies and economies will adjust...just like all thru history.

A world where people have fewer kids but that they actually invest in, emotionally, financially, with their time and energy is much better than a world where people continue to have more kids they dont want and cant afford (which any restrictions on abortion enables :doh) just produces a higher ratio of poorer quality citizens less able to actually contribute to society in positive ways.

Like RN said: quality of life vs quantity.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Lursa said:
The instinct to reproduce is the strongest in any living organism. People will never stop having sex, people will continue to have kids, intentionally or accidentally, lol.

And societies and economies will adjust...just like all thru history.

A world where people have fewer kids but that they actually invest in, emotionally, financially, with their time and energy is much better than a world where people continue to have more kids they dont want and cant afford (which any restrictions on abortion enables) just produces a higher ratio of poorer quality citizens less able to actually contribute to society in positive ways.

Like RN said: quality of life vs quantity.
Click to expand...

In the developed world the birth rate is below replacement rates, so unless every country is poor and social programs in the western world are a complete and utter failure it's just that people don't want enough children to keep population rates from declining. How strong is that instinct if it can't even keep numbers as they were?

Once you effectively retard, cripple or kill sperm on a constant basis birth rates WILL decrease further. Like it or not accidents are necessary.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
In the developed world the birth rate is below replacement rates, so unless every country is poor and social programs in the western world are a complete and utter failure it's just that people don't want enough children to keep population rates from declining. How strong is that instinct if it can't even keep numbers as they were?
Click to expand...

Who says numbers need to stay 'as they were?' Or need to be at some 'replacement level'?

People arent going to stop reproducing, hence they will not go extinct (from that particular reason). They would never go below an actual, logistical replacement level.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Lursa said:
Who says numbers need to stay 'as they were?' Or need to be at some 'replacement level'?
Click to expand...

What would be the point of this instinct that you speak of if can't even keep numbers up?

People arent going to stop reproducing, hence they will not go extinct (from that particular reason). They would never go below an actual, logistical replacement level.
Click to expand...

Nice mental gymnastics.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
Do you actually think people naturally want enough children to keep the human population at stable numbers? As men become less attached to old ways of thinking they become less interested in children, and as women gain ground in society they also become less interested in children. The only reason birth rates were anywhere near what they were is because of social influence and lack of control.

Oh and just so you know, 80+ countries are below replacement rates. If you were to give people a way to stop the sperm then the number of births would plummet.
Click to expand...

why do you find stable to increased population the better objective?
why not a population that winds down at less than the replacement rate; something typically found in advanced societies
... Historical documents from the post-Black Death period indicated that standards of living improved after the epidemic, at least in some areas of Europe such as England. These changes in standards of living resulted in large part from the massive depopulation caused by the Black Death, which reversed the pre-epidemic conditions of an excess population relative to resources [22]. After the Black Death, there was a severe shortage of laborers, effectively ending the medieval system of serfdom, and consequently wages improved dramatically while prices for food, goods, and housing fell [23]. These changes represented a major redistribution of wealth. Real wages rose to levels that were not exceeded until the 19th century, which allowed for improvements in housing and diet for people of all social status levels ...
Click to expand...
Mortality Risk and Survival in the Aftermath of the Medieval Black Death

the depopulation of europe resulted in greater demand for labor and less demand for goods, increasing wages while decreasing the cost of living. a net increase in the standard of living resulted

that is contraindicative to your proposal to continue to expand/maintain the present population size
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

justabubba said:
why do you find stable to increased population the better objective?
why not a population that winds down at less than the replacement rate; something typically found in advanced societies
Click to expand...

Because historically it's best for wealth expansion and prosperity, while a shrinking economy is generally bad for both wealth and prosperity.

Mortality Risk and Survival in the Aftermath of the Medieval Black Death

the depopulation of europe resulted in greater demand for labor and less demand for goods, increasing wages while decreasing the cost of living. a net increase in the standard of living resulted

that is contraindicative to your proposal to continue to expand/maintain the present population size
Click to expand...

Kind of a morbid view, but yes, quick depopulation can cause employment opportunities and even have postive effects on peoples lives. Of course, you have to ignore all the dead to think this is the right path to take to improve the economy. This is really another example of the broken window fallacy where people ignore things like death, destruction, rebuilding, wasted resources, etc.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

roguenuke said:
As someone else said, if you really want to lower birth rates, abortion rates, you have to lower unwanted pregnancy rates instead of just pregnancy rates as a whole. Most women want to plan to have a child, as do many men. What would really help is to find a birth control method for men that works similar to birth control pills or IUD or a shot for women. The only two methods currently available for men require some control and responsibility, as well as losing some of the "good feelings" that some men don't want to give up. But if men could get a shot or implant like women can to give them a short term (months to a few years) of sterilization that they could end if they were ready to be a parent, then this would help lower unintended pregnancies.
Click to expand...

OK, i will preface my remarks with an expectation that they might be viewed only as worthy of the public policy emanating from north korea

for the benefit of society we need a contraceptive in our water supply; think of fluoride for birth control
only those who have been licensed by the government would be able to receive a prescription of the antidote, allowing them to procreate

in a few decades the cycle of poverty would be broken, since only those able and willing to earn a living to care for their families financial needs would be eligible for the prescription

gotta run catch my flight to Pyongyang
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
What would be the point of this instinct that you speak of if can't even keep numbers up?
Click to expand...

Keep numbers up where? You have no idea what actual replacement numbers for the species Homo sapiens is. It's utterly ludicrous to believe that people would stop having sex and kids to the point of no more kids. Is that what you are attempting to argue? If so, please own it.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

justabubba said:
OK, i will preface my remarks with an expectation that they might be viewed only as worthy of the public policy emanating from north korea

for the benefit of society we need a contraceptive in our water supply; think of fluoride for birth control
only those who have been licensed by the government would be able to receive a prescription of the antidote, allowing them to procreate

in a few decades the cycle of poverty would be broken, since only those able and willing to earn a living to care for their families financial needs would be eligible for the prescription

gotta run catch my flight to Pyongyang
Click to expand...

Thank you for speaking out so clearly against govt force used to control reproduction.

That of course, is why the pro-choice position where the decision to reproduce is left up to the free will of individuals, based on their individual needs and in the best interests of their families, current and future, is a substantial indicator of freedom and respect for people's rights.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Lursa said:
Keep numbers up where? You have no idea what actual replacement numbers for the species Homo sapiens is. It's utterly ludicrous to believe that people would stop having sex and kids to the point of no more kids. Is that what you are attempting to argue? If so, please own it.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything about people not having kids at all. Try to use less strawmen in your arguments. We also know what replacement rates are for a species.
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Henrin said:
Because historically it's best for wealth expansion and prosperity, while a shrinking economy is generally bad for both wealth and prosperity.
Click to expand...

LOL Tell that to China and India.

And how is it different from all those immigrating into the US (legally or not) and those being born here? Are the immigrants not part of the population? Yet, seemingly, there seem to be many objections to those new people adding to the population...certainly in terms of 'wealth expansion and prosperity.' I mean, why arent we welcoming them with open arms if that's what 'more people' means?
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Fearandloathing said:
Wow, Carly made a mistake


I wonder, I bet this forum would be ten times busier if we posted everything said wrong by Hillary.
\
\
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A "mistake?" Do you mean intentional or unintentional?
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Lursa said:
A "mistake?" Do you mean intentional or unintentional?
Click to expand...


Now how the **** would I or anyone else know?

It's about evenness, and again, this thread and forum would be much, much busier if we were talking about Hillary's "mistakes".
 
Re: Carly Fiorina incorrect that U.S. has a 'record number of abortions year after ye

Fearandloathing said:
Now how the **** would I or anyone else know?

It's about evenness, and again, this thread and forum would be much, much busier if we were talking about Hillary's "mistakes".
Click to expand...

Intentional or unintentional?
 
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