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Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions[W:40]

Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
And yet that is exactly what you promote when you laud "the economic and social benefits of abortion."

Why yes, I would have to agree that the mentality is appalling. That is why I am pointing out that it is the same as promoting abortion.



Yes, feeling no concern for killing another human being for your own personal benefit - demonstrating a callous disregard for their humanity and their rights - is absolutely cruel.



I have not employed emotion in this argument in any way.
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No one is promoting abortion. That is an individual decision made by a woman in the best interests of her life and that of her family.

But since many people object to abortion, IMO it's important to demonstrate that it indeed has value to society as well as to individual women.

And no one has demonstrated any social or economic harm to society yet. This is the topic of the OP....but no one has countered the positive aspects yet.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
So...there are none and you cannot provide any.

Thanks. "Look it up yourself" is a clear demonstration that, once again, you cannot back up your claim.

The OP is specifically about this...why post if you cannot actually discuss the issue?
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And if it were not someone that was interested in the topic, I would certainly have gone to the bother of looking up some literature.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

joG said:
And if it were not someone that was interested in the topic, I would certainly have gone to the bother of looking up some literature.
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Now you are lying. The topic is about social and economic benefits/detriments of abortion. I am here posting. I posted multiple sources (post 17). I post frequently in the abortion sub-forum. It is ridiculous to suggest I am not interested in the topic. Again...you are unable to provide any counterpoint at all and so you are reduced to condescension...which fools no one.

Please discuss the topic....otherwise why did you come to this thread?
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
No one is promoting abortion.
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That is false.

it's important to demonstrate that it indeed has value to society
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Since there are demonstrably people who promote abortion by trying to demonstrate it has "social benefit," it is important to point out that you can achieve the same "social benefit" by culling many other populations; I would regard such theoretical future (and historical) efforts as immoral, of course, but then there is no difference between them and abortion.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
That is false.



Since there are demonstrably people who promote abortion by trying to demonstrate it has "social benefit," it is important to point out that you can achieve the same "social benefit" by culling many other populations; I would regard such theoretical future (and historical) efforts as immoral, of course, but then there is no difference between them and abortion.
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Please show where people 'promote' abortion. Please support this with proof.

And objectively demonstrating it's benefits to society is not 'promotion.' It's not being 'used' to do so.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
Please show where people 'promote' abortion.
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Edit: No.

I think this is too meta-topic given the thread warning. I think it is once again evident.
 
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Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Henrin said:
Killing poor people would lower welfare costs too.


Just sayin'.
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Fortunately no one suggested that. Just sayin
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
Edit: No.

I think this is too meta-topic given the thread warning. I think it is once again evident.
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You made it part of the thread by saying that demonstrating social and economic benefits of abortion meant 'promotion.' Collecting and presenting data is not 'promotion' and the thread asked for such information.

There's nothing to discuss however, because the bold is true and you cannot challenge that fact.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
There's nothing to discuss however...
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Lursa, selling the idea that abortion has "social benefits" is absolutely extolling the idea that abortion is good.

I'm not sure what "working" definition of "promotion" you operate under, but that's kind of the meaning of the word, yeah.


In response, I will happily point out that you can get the same "social benefits" from eliminating legal protections from and subsequently killing lots of folks in other groups.

I can think of lots of historical groups that liked the "social benefits" of rounding up and killing those who didn't support their regime, didn't look like they did, would have cost the state money, etc. Mass killings are just great for national unity, after all, since the ones who don't like it are all dead.
 
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Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
Lursa, selling the idea that abortion has "social benefits" is absolutely extolling the idea that abortion is good.

I'm not sure what "working" definition of "promotion" you operate under, but that's kind of the meaning of the word, yeah.
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This (the bold) is not arguable. If you fantasize that it is, feel free to continue...on your own:

Lursa said:
You made it part of the thread by saying that demonstrating social and economic benefits of abortion meant 'promotion.' Collecting and presenting data is not 'promotion' and the thread asked for such information.

There's nothing to discuss however, because the bold is true and you cannot challenge that fact.
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Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
This (the bold) is not arguable.
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Since you're repeating yourself, I will just once again note that selling the idea that abortion is great and has "social benefits" is the very definition of promotion.

Pretending it isn't won't change the reality of what words mean.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
Since you're repeating yourself, I will just once again note that selling the idea that abortion is great and has "social benefits" is the very definition of promotion.

Pretending it isn't won't change the reality of what words mean.
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You also are repeating yourself. To no avail. You didnt disprove my statement because you cannot.

All can read it and I see no need to take the thread further off course.

Lursa said:
You made it part of the thread by saying that demonstrating social and economic benefits of abortion meant 'promotion.' Collecting and presenting data is not 'promotion' and the thread asked for such information.

There's nothing to discuss however, because the bold is true and you cannot challenge that fact.
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Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
You didnt disprove my statement because you cannot.
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Yes, I already did.

Full Definition of promote
pro·mot·edpro·mot·ing
transitive verb
1
a : to advance in station, rank, or honor : raise
b : to change (a pawn) into a piece in chess by moving to the eighth rank
c : to advance (a student) from one grade to the next higher grade
2
a : to contribute to the growth or prosperity of : further <promote international understanding>
b : to help bring (as an enterprise) into being : launch
c : to present (merchandise) for buyer acceptance through advertising, publicity, or discounting

"Abortion has great social benefits"

Promotion.

I'd appreciate it if you'd get off this and move on to something where you aren't just trying to deny what plain English language words undeniably mean.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
Lursa, selling the idea that abortion has "social benefits" is absolutely extolling the idea that abortion is good.

I'm not sure what "working" definition of "promotion" you operate under, but that's kind of the meaning of the word, yeah.


In response, I will happily point out that you can get the same "social benefits" from eliminating legal protections from and subsequently killing lots of folks in other groups.

I can think of lots of historical groups that liked the "social benefits" of rounding up and killing those who didn't support their regime, didn't look like they did, would have cost the state money, etc. Mass killings are just great for national unity, after all, since the ones who don't like it are all dead.
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But the topic isn't about that. And furthermore, abortion has been legal in many countries for decades and such scenarios are not popping up in the U.S. or Europe so the point really has no barring except to fall under the slippery slope fallacy which is an emotional argument.

The topic is about the social and economic benefits abortion brings to society, and whether the results are positive or negative.

I argue that abortion is mostly a positive, because it allows families to plan out their economic futures and have children whenever they are ready, which gives the potential children a better shot at life since they are born to parents with a better position of mobility and framework to provide for said children.

On the social level, children born to poor mothers tend to grow up with a framework that predisposes them to get involved in crime. If such children are never born, the crime rate has dropped as we see 18 years after Roe v. Wade.

If you want to argue about whether or not the fetus is actually a child, viability, etc, there are countless numerous threads to do so in and they all devolve the same way. If you would like to argue the economic and social implications of abortion in a way to counter my above statements, please do so without bringing in slippery slope fallacies or other arguments that have nothing to do with my topic.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

akrunner88 said:
But the topic isn't about that. And furthermore, abortion has been legal in many countries for decades and such scenarios are not popping up in the U.S. or Europe so the point really has no barring except to fall under the slippery slope fallacy which is an emotional argument.
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I actually hadn't made any comments reflecting a slippery slope argument.

What I did was to note that you can derive "social benefits" from a whole host of other depraved and inhuman actions (like abortion), and that just rounding up social undesirables and shooting them in the head has all kinds of economic benefits. So did slavery - just tons of economic benefits from slavery.

My point was actually what I always say to those folks who just read (or read about) Freakonomics and come off saying abortion reduces crime - so would a lot things. The ends do not justify these means.

And of course, if you're complaining about welfare spending, you could instead, you know, just eliminate welfare.

I argue that abortion is mostly a positive, because it allows families to plan out their economic futures and have children whenever they are ready, which gives the potential children a better shot at life since they are born to parents with a better position of mobility and framework to provide for said children.
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Yeah, but it has a funny way of making the previous kids dead. Sucks for them, huh?

Frankly, I don't want someone vile enough to kill another human being like this for their own selfish benefit to ever have or be around kids again.

On the social level, children born to poor mothers tend to grow up with a framework that predisposes them to get involved in crime. If such children are never born, the crime rate has dropped as we see 18 years after Roe v. Wade.
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Yeah, but they're alive, and they get to determine for themselves if their own lives have value to them. And that's what is important.
 
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Hard to believe. Abortion would seem to be the most expensive and medically traumatic form of birth control. Also the most morally questionable and perhaps the most emotional traumatic. There are numerous other forms of birth control which are cheaper, safer, and easier.
I guess that if you compare it to possibilities after people fail to do all those other options perhaps. Kinda like lethal injections have economic benefits when used for people who are mortally wounded.
 
Eric7216 said:
Hard to believe. Abortion would seem to be the most expensive and medically traumatic form of birth control. Also the most morally questionable and perhaps the most emotional traumatic. There are numerous other forms of birth control which are cheaper, safer, and easier.
...
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Yes, most forms of artificial birth control are cheaper , easier , and less emotional to use which is why 65 percent of women of child bearing years in the US do use an artificial birth control medication or device both correctly and consistently.

Unfortunately no artificial birth control is 100 effective and about 5 percent of women using artifical birth control correctly and consistory will experience an unplanned pregnancy each year.
 
akrunner88 said:
Does legalized abortion have any economic and/or social benefits?
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I don't know, but I do know that it does not benefit it's intended victim.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Hari Seldon said:
I think you didn't say what you meant. Abortion helps people to seek higher education because they have more time and resources to devote to education as opposed to using them on kids.
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Not necessarily.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

GEIxBattleRifle said:
Completely forgetting now that unborn humans are not people to begin with.
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Better to forget them, because unborn humans are still human beings to begin with, and killing another human being is murder.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

RamFel said:
Better to forget them, because unborn humans are still human beings to begin with, and killing another human being is murder.
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Well then, please prove that it is murder. Because it may be murder to your extremist anti-choice mind but that does mean nothing at all in grand state of things.

And I want to see the US statutes of law that proves that in the eyes of criminal law (the only law that designates what is and is not murder) that abortion is murder. If you would be so kind.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

JayDubya said:
Yes, I already did.

Full Definition of promote
pro·mot·edpro·mot·ing
transitive verb
1
a : to advance in station, rank, or honor : raise
b : to change (a pawn) into a piece in chess by moving to the eighth rank
c : to advance (a student) from one grade to the next higher grade
2
a : to contribute to the growth or prosperity of : further <promote international understanding>
b : to help bring (as an enterprise) into being : launch
c : to present (merchandise) for buyer acceptance through advertising, publicity, or discounting

"Abortion has great social benefits" The data objectively does no such thing. It does not promote it in your eyes, correct? LMAO, game, set, match,

Promotion.

I'd appreciate it if you'd get off this and move on to something where you aren't just trying to deny what plain English language words undeniably mean.
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So....you posted that to apologize for being wrong I see? Thank you. As your definition nowhere nullified the bold in my post:
Lursa said:
You made it part of the thread by saying that demonstrating social and economic benefits of abortion meant 'promotion.' Collecting and presenting data is not 'promotion' and the thread asked for such information.

There's nothing to discuss however, because the bold is true and you cannot challenge that fact.
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The red is based on collecting and presenting with a motive or intent. That is not implied in the objective acts of collecting and presenting.

Your self-correction is nice tho, I think it indicates personal growth, lol.
 
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Eric7216 said:
Hard to believe. Abortion would seem to be the most expensive and medically traumatic form of birth control. Also the most morally questionable and perhaps the most emotional traumatic. There are numerous other forms of birth control which are cheaper, safer, and easier.
I guess that if you compare it to possibilities after people fail to do all those other options perhaps. Kinda like lethal injections have economic benefits when used for people who are mortally wounded.
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Abortion is not birth control. BC *prevents* abortion, not pregnancy.

Abortion ends a pregnancy and at least 65% of women who choose an abortion were using bc.
 
Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Lursa said:
So....you posted that to apologize for being wrong I see?
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No, I posted it to prove you were wrong.

By lauding the social benefits of abortion, as you have done, you are promoting it by definition.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Again, I'd appreciate if we could move past these peculiar semantics games because English words do have meanings and your complaints about my word use in this case, as usual, are invalid.
 
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Re: Economic & Social Benefits of Abortions

Peter King said:
Well then, please prove that it is murder. Because it may be murder to your extremist anti-choice mind but that does mean nothing at all in grand state of things.

And I want to see the US statutes of law that proves that in the eyes of criminal law (the only law that designates what is and is not murder) that abortion is murder. If you would be so kind.
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Peter, here are no US statutes proving the charges of murder. But does that mean that no human beings are dying at the hands of people who do have murderous intent? Criminal law is not immune to being wrong.


There is so much you need to learn.
 
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