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Why not outlaw abortion

FeistyBroad said:
So they should outlaw something that was made legal in the 70s for a reason? You may want to educate yourself on roe vs wade. Woman have freedoms now, crazy I know... It seems absurd to go backwards in time. Do you think it's a good idea for the woman to use coat hangers? They absolutely will, in fact, it's happened recently in states that have banned clinics. There is nothing wrong with a woman getting an abortion it is her choice and she has her own reasons for it. It is no ones concern especially not the governments.
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Feisty,

The question we should be asking is why did that women get pregnant in the first place? Why is she considering using a coat hanger? Give that child a chance at life, if it mean loving, raising and nurturing that child as a loving mother or giving it up for adoption to a couple that cannot conceive on their own or wants to simply love and raise a child.
 
Bucky said:
Feisty,

The question we should be asking is why did that women get pregnant in the first place? Why is she considering using a coat hanger? Give that child a chance at life, if it mean loving, raising and nurturing that child as a loving mother or giving it up for adoption to a couple that cannot conceive on their own or wants to simply love and raise a child.
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I personally disagree with abortion. You seem quite clueless to the effects of pregnancy on the woman and her born children. Pregnancy can thrust a woman into poverty, make work difficult to obtain and cause great difficulties for ever crawling out of that hole.

I had good resources and family support...my pregnancy was difficult. I was off almost 6 months due to pregnancy complications and surgery. I was a good age, good health, great hips for childbearing. I should have had an easy pregnancy. My pregnancy thrust me into a financial hole that took me years to get out of. I was LUCKY I kept my job (it was only secured for 12 weeks). I lost a lost a great promotion (that clearly would have been mine). Now......what if I was under-resourced? Do you have an actual concept what would have happened??

Yeah....people should be more careful to use appropriate birth control . Currently, the most reliable BC is long term implantable or IUD. Expensive. Frankly, it can cost more than abortion.

If folks REALLY care about drastically decreasing abortions there are 2 pathways....accessible and available high quality reliable long term birth control or help the woman turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one - naïve remarks like you made do not help at all.

FIngerwagging and slutshaming is just not effective when someone is in crisis.
 
Bucky said:
Feisty,

The question we should be asking is why did that women get pregnant in the first place? Why is she considering using a coat hanger? Give that child a chance at life, if it mean loving, raising and nurturing that child as a loving mother or giving it up for adoption to a couple that cannot conceive on their own or wants to simply love and raise a child.
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Women aren't breeding stock. They get pregnant because they have sex. Sex is engaged in soooooooooo many more times for pleasure and bonding than it is for reproducing. Where have you been since the dawn of humanity?

Women who get pregnant have no, zero, zip legal or moral obligation to give birth...anymore than men do.

But you want to use an unwanted child to punish women for having sex for pleasure. The child becomes the punishment by proxy. But sadly in the end...they become the victims that pro-life really doesn't care about once they've breathed air and are among the born. Pro-life will come up with another excuse as to how people reap what they sow and it's their responsibility to provide. And then they want to end social programs that are so needed by children. The true injury is inflicted on these unwanted kids.
 
year2late said:
I personally disagree with abortion. You seem quite clueless to the effects of pregnancy on the woman and her born children. Pregnancy can thrust a woman into poverty, make work difficult to obtain and cause great difficulties for ever crawling out of that hole.

I had good resources and family support...my pregnancy was difficult. I was off almost 6 months due to pregnancy complications and surgery. I was a good age, good health, great hips for childbearing. I should have had an easy pregnancy. My pregnancy thrust me into a financial hole that took me years to get out of. I was LUCKY I kept my job (it was only secured for 12 weeks). I lost a lost a great promotion (that clearly would have been mine). Now......what if I was under-resourced? Do you have an actual concept what would have happened??

Yeah....people should be more careful to use appropriate birth control . Currently, the most reliable BC is long term implantable or IUD. Expensive. Frankly, it can cost more than abortion.

If folks REALLY care about drastically decreasing abortions there are 2 pathways....accessible and available high quality reliable long term birth control or help the woman turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one - naïve remarks like you made do not help at all.

FIngerwagging and slutshaming is just not effective when someone is in crisis.
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You mention nothing regarding the path of adoption. Give a family who cannot conceive the opportunity to raise that child.

Removable Mind said:
Women who get pregnant have no, zero, zip legal or moral obligation to give birth...anymore than men do.

But you want to use an unwanted child to punish women for having sex for pleasure. The child becomes the punishment by proxy. But sadly in the end...they become the victims that pro-life really doesn't care about once they've breathed air and are among the born. Pro-life will come up with another excuse as to how people reap what they sow and it's their responsibility to provide. And then they want to end social programs that are so needed by children. The true injury is inflicted on these unwanted kids.
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1. Men do not get pregnant.

2. I do not know any loving/caring mother that would call having a child a punishment.

3. That is simply not a factual statement. What social programs are pro-life groups trying to end? Several social programs exist in this country that help newlywed mothers and their child. The truly despicable mothers are those that conceive a child and literally "throw away" their child in a garbage bin.
 
Bucky said:
2. I do not know any loving/caring mother that would call having a child a punishment.
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And what about a woman that wasnt ready for a child or couldnt afford one or couldnt give it enough care and attention because of her other responsibilities like other kids, dependent elderly, 2 jobs, etc? What do you think she might consider a child she felt 'forced' to have?
 
Bucky said:
You mention nothing regarding the path of adoption. Give a family who cannot conceive the opportunity to raise that child.
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Families have hundreds of thousands of 'opportunities' to do so now...and dont. There are over 100,000 children waiting for adoption in the US.

Facts and Statistics

Meet the Children - AdoptUSKids

https://davethomasfoundation.org/news_story/national-adoption-month-foster-care-adoption-statistics/


How can it be a good idea to unnecessarily add more?
 
Bucky said:
You mention nothing regarding the path of adoption. Give a family who cannot conceive the opportunity to raise that child.
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Adoption is not an answer to a girl/ woman who does not wish to gestate a pregnancy.

Only about 1 percent of US women give their newborn up for adoption.

As Lursa pointed out there are over 100,000 in the US awaiting adoption.
 
Bucky said:
You mention nothing regarding the path of adoption. Give a family who cannot conceive the opportunity to raise that child.
.
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Perhaps I can help you put 2 and 2 together.

In my situation (a healthy woman with resources/great health care) I was REQUIRED to be off work for almost 6 months. Now think about this. An under-resourced woman living paycheck to paycheck who already lives in an iffy area and has to chose whether to buy a bus ticket or pay the water bill. She could easily be evicted, end up in a shelter and end up with even crappier access to health care.

Who are you or I to judge how pregnancy will affect another woman? In my situation I was lucky to come out with my kidneys and my life. I was heavily in debt for years. I was damned lucky that I was given my old job back. FMLA covers 12 weeks. Not 6 months like I was off.

So adoption means you have to go through all the physical issues. So yeah....it is nice to say someone else could adopt the child...but she still faces all the social, financial, and physical ramifications for being pregnant.

Not your body, not your choice. That is why I am personally antiabortion (except in very serious situations) but I am utterly and completely pro choice.

Like I said umpteen times. If you want to decrease abortions, stop the fingerwagging, coercion, slutshamming, run of the mill shaming, etc.... Either advocate for high quality very effect birth control OR figure out how to turn that unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one.
 
GEIxBattleRifle said:
Are you trying to use information like that to justify abortion for example??
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I am explaining there are many children already awaiting adoption to someone who is advocating putting children up for adoption.

Why do think 99 percent of US women who have unwanted pregnancies and give birth end up keeping the child rather than give the newborn to the adoption system ?
 
minnie616 said:
I am explaining there are many children already awaiting adoption to someone who is advocating putting children up for adoption.

Why do think 99 percent of US women who have unwanted pregnancies and give birth end up keeping the child rather than give the newborn to the adoption system ?
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And it is not just about adoption. A woman living paycheck to paycheck in already crappy circumstances will find herself in deep doo doo when she has to turn down much needed shift to make MD appointments, tests, birth (which may include major surgery) and recovery period. She may find herself out of a job as well if she exceeds FMLA.

You know Minnie, a lot of the women having abortions are not in secure financial/social situations. I always had access to quality health care. I make an appointment and I go. I have a family member who uses the county system (Medicaid). An appointment with a county office means you go in at your slotted time and with luck you are seen within a few hours. If there are tests or such...it may mean another few hours or coming back another day and waiting more. These are women that repeated appointments lasting hours mean shifts off work and pissing off employers.

I get that people consider a zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to a born baby and they consider it "murder". But bloody hell, I wish they would not be so dismissive of what it can mean for a woman to be pregnant. It can mean loss of her ability to support herself. And if she already is caring for a child (as most women who abort already have a child)it can mean her born child being thrust further into poverty.

That is why I keep harping on the pro-lifers - fingerwagging and slutshaming is ineffectual to a woman soon to be in a desperate circumstance. Show that woman how that unwanted pregnancy can be a wanted one. But that means showing her how she can support her family and herself through a pregnancy, childbirth, and 18 years (plus)of child rearing. Give her concrete hope for her future and the future of her family.
 
year2late said:
And it is not just about adoption. A woman living paycheck to paycheck in already crappy circumstances will find herself in deep doo doo when she has to turn down much needed shift to make MD appointments, tests, birth (which may include major surgery) and recovery period. She may find herself out of a job as well if she exceeds FMLA.

You know Minnie, a lot of the women having abortions are not in secure financial/social situations. I always had access to quality health care. I make an appointment and I go. I have a family member who uses the county system (Medicaid). An appointment with a county office means you go in at your slotted time and with luck you are seen within a few hours. If there are tests or such...it may mean another few hours or coming back another day and waiting more. These are women that repeated appointments lasting hours mean shifts off work and pissing off employers.

I get that people consider a zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to a born baby and they consider it "murder". But bloody hell, I wish they would not be so dismissive of what it can mean for a woman to be pregnant. It can mean loss of her ability to support herself. And if she already is caring for a child (as most women who abort already have a child)it can mean her born child being thrust further into poverty.

That is why I keep harping on the pro-lifers - fingerwagging and slutshaming is ineffectual to a woman soon to be in a desperate circumstance. Show that woman how that unwanted pregnancy can be a wanted one. But that means showing her how she can support her family and herself through a pregnancy, childbirth, and 18 years (plus)of child rearing. Give her concrete hope for her future and the future of her family.
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I fully agree.
As you are aware I also had health problems during my first pregnancy.
I had to quit my part time job and my college classes and stay home because I was so ill.
My part time job did not have any benefits so if I had single I would have been destitute.

My loving husband was so supportive when I was so ill from the pregnancy.
He supported us not only financially but he took over the housework, drove me to my doctor appointments and took such great care of me. I was so anemic by the time I gave birth , my OB/GYN thought I might hemorrhage so he put me under just before the delivery in case and had the delivery room ready to give me a complete blood transfusion.
When I wheeled into delivery I did not know if I would live to see my baby or even know if I had a boy or girl.
 
year2late said:
And it is not just about adoption. A woman living paycheck to paycheck in already crappy circumstances will find herself in deep doo doo when she has to turn down much needed shift to make MD appointments, tests, birth (which may include major surgery) and recovery period. She may find herself out of a job as well if she exceeds FMLA.

You know Minnie, a lot of the women having abortions are not in secure financial/social situations. I always had access to quality health care. I make an appointment and I go. I have a family member who uses the county system (Medicaid). An appointment with a county office means you go in at your slotted time and with luck you are seen within a few hours. If there are tests or such...it may mean another few hours or coming back another day and waiting more. These are women that repeated appointments lasting hours mean shifts off work and pissing off employers.

I get that people consider a zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to a born baby and they consider it "murder". But bloody hell, I wish they would not be so dismissive of what it can mean for a woman to be pregnant. It can mean loss of her ability to support herself. And if she already is caring for a child (as most women who abort already have a child)it can mean her born child being thrust further into poverty.

That is why I keep harping on the pro-lifers - fingerwagging and slutshaming is ineffectual to a woman soon to be in a desperate circumstance. Show that woman how that unwanted pregnancy can be a wanted one. But that means showing her how she can support her family and herself through a pregnancy, childbirth, and 18 years (plus)of child rearing. Give her concrete hope for her future and the future of her family.
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Y2L, Pro-life's dismissiveness called "cognitive rigidity". They can't get beyond the dogma that is the catalyst for their beliefs. Their minds only see a new sacrosanct vessel that's been created "for a purpose" and abortion defies the purpose. Women are simply a means to an end. And the means to an end doesn't hold the value that the sacrosanct vessel does. And the vessel, wanted or not, must be delivered.

So all of the reasons or necessities for abortion - are virtually meaningless to pro-life. The consequences to women and society have no meaning. They are humanity's watchdog and the enforcers on behalf of the creator of all sacrosanct vessels.
 
Removable Mind said:
Y2L, Pro-life's dismissiveness called "cognitive rigidity". They can't get beyond the dogma that is the catalyst for their beliefs. Their minds only see a new sacrosanct vessel that's been created "for a purpose" and abortion defies the purpose. Women are simply a means to an end. And the means to an end doesn't hold the value that the sacrosanct vessel does. And the vessel, wanted or not, must be delivered.

So all of the reasons or necessities for abortion - are virtually meaningless to pro-life. The consequences to women and society have no meaning. They are humanity's watchdog and the enforcers on behalf of the creator of all sacrosanct vessels.
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The funny thing is that I get their rigidity in terms of the life of the zygote, embryo, or fetus. But I wish they were more honest about what pregnancy can mean to women that are already do not have a strong social or financial structure -let alone the real possibility that their access to decent health care may be non-existent.
 
minnie616 said:
I fully agree.
As you are aware I also had health problems during my first pregnancy.
I had to quit my part time job and my college classes and stay home because I was so ill.
My part time job did not have any benefits so if I had single I would have been destitute.

My loving husband was so supportive when I was so ill from the pregnancy.
He supported us not only financially but he took over the housework, drove me to my doctor appointments and took such great care of me. I was so anemic by the time I gave birth , my OB/GYN thought I might hemorrhage so he put me under just before the delivery in case and had the delivery room ready to give me a complete blood transfusion.
When I wheeled into delivery I did not know if I would live to see my baby or even know if I had a boy or girl.
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Agreed.

But it is not just about having major complications like we did.

A woman who is financially strapped without a good social structure is likely to end up in county clinics and facilities. They might have to lose a whole days pay (and piss off an employer) just for a routine visit. Before he went to hospice he had many scheduled visits at the county clinics. Each five minute MD visit was a half day affair. Lots of people waiting in those waiting rooms. But it just takes one patient to be more critical and it throws all the other appointments off.

Even a healthy pregnancy with the intent of adopting out can throw a woman into financial ruin and an even more desperate situation,
 
year2late said:
In my situation (a healthy woman with resources/great health care) I was REQUIRED to be off work for almost 6 months. Now think about this. An under-resourced woman living paycheck to paycheck who already lives in an iffy area and has to chose whether to buy a bus ticket or pay the water bill. She could easily be evicted, end up in a shelter and end up with even crappier access to health care.

Who are you or I to judge how pregnancy will affect another woman? In my situation I was lucky to come out with my kidneys and my life. I was heavily in debt for years. I was damned lucky that I was given my old job back. FMLA covers 12 weeks. Not 6 months like I was off.

So adoption means you have to go through all the physical issues. So yeah....it is nice to say someone else could adopt the child...but she still faces all the social, financial, and physical ramifications for being pregnant.
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minnie616 said:
I fully agree.
As you are aware I also had health problems during my first pregnancy.
I had to quit my part time job and my college classes and stay home because I was so ill.
My part time job did not have any benefits so if I had single I would have been destitute.
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Yeah, it's a shame you both had those 'inconveniences' to your lives during your pregnancies. :roll:

It's pretty disgusting, esp with "good Christian folk', when people make self-righteous claims that women just choose abortion on a whim, out of 'convenience.'

No consideration at all on the impacts on the rest of their lives...like their other obligations to their current family, dependent elderly or others in the family, etc. Sure drag them all to a less safe neighborhood and go on welfare...their safety and your means of supporting them, job, college, etc dont matter at all!
 
Lursa said:
Yeah, it's a shame you both had those 'inconveniences' to your lives during your pregnancies. :roll:

It's pretty disgusting, esp with "good Christian folk', when people make self-righteous claims that women just choose abortion on a whim, out of 'convenience.'

No consideration at all on the impacts on the rest of their lives...like their other obligations to their current family, dependent elderly or others in the family, etc. Sure drag them all to a less safe neighborhood and go on welfare...their safety and your means of supporting them, job, college, etc dont matter at all!
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Can you imagine if the State had control over women's reproductive rights and basically their body and determined that a woman, who had a viable fetus, wasn't living a healthy life according to the State's opinion, and that she was detrimental to the welfare of the fetus, and the State had power to arrest her and then force her to have a caesarean birth?

This is what a lot of pro-life advocates want for our nation.
 
Removable Mind said:
Can you imagine if the State had control over women's reproductive rights and basically their body and determined that a woman, who had a viable fetus, wasn't living a healthy life according to the State's opinion, and that she was detrimental to the welfare of the fetus, and the State had power to arrest her and then force her to have a caesarean birth?

This is what a lot of pro-life advocates want for our nation.
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How would you know about what we want? Right there, you just destroyed whatever lingering shred of credibility you had left. How, for instance, would I believe anything you say (assuming it's based on credible information) when you come out with outlandish statements about what conservatives want?
 
RamFel said:
How would you know about what we want? Right there, you just destroyed whatever lingering shred of credibility you had left. How, for instance, would I believe anything you say (assuming it's based on credible information) when you come out with outlandish statements about what conservatives want?
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Too funny coming from the from the guy who claims that being pro choice has nothing to do with right to privacy/women rights.
 
Removable Mind said:
Can you imagine if the State had control over women's reproductive rights and basically their body and determined that a woman, who had a viable fetus, wasn't living a healthy life according to the State's opinion, and that she was detrimental to the welfare of the fetus, and the State had power to arrest her and then force her to have a caesarean birth?

This is what a lot of pro-life advocates want for our nation.
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You're point may be more valid than you realize.

Two examples:
The Nazis and Abortion
The Nazis certainly were not "pro-Choice", but they were not "anti-abortion" either. The Nazis believed that a woman's body belonged to the State, and the State would decide what to do with it. The Nazis did not allow abortion for healthy "Aryan" German women, but demanded and forced abortion upon women deemed "unAryan" (i.e. Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc.) and "Aryan" German women who were thought to be feeble-minded, or have hereditary diseases.
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This denial of women's reproductive rights was elaborated to its full implecations during the Communist dictatorship in Rumania.Decree 770: Abortion Outlawed in Communist Romania - [/QUOTE]

In 1966, Romanian President Nicolae Ceausescu issued Decree 770, outlawing abortion and the use of contraceptives in an effort to reverse the country’s very low birth rate...

From 1966 until Ceausescu’s overthrow in the 1989 revolution, the fertility of Romanian women was under the constant surveillance of state officials. Women under the age of 40 were taken from their place of work every 1-3 months and subjected to mandatory medical exams to determine if they were pregnant at the earliest stage possible. These exams were often done in the presence of government officials, nicknamed the “menstrual police” by some Romanians. If a woman failed to conceive, she would be subjected to questioning by government officials. Miscarriages were looked upon with suspicion, despite the fact that they were commonplace due to the overwhelming rates of malnutrition in the impoverished country.
Women turned to having illegal abortions as a means of avoiding having more children that they could not afford to raise. Because of the dangerous methods of these back-alley abortions, the maternal mortality rate skyrocketed. In 1989, the recorded number of women that died during pregnancy or childbirth was 169, 10 times higher than the recorded number of any other European country. 89% of those deaths were abortion-related.
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That is one of the justifications for Roe vs Wade. The other is the legal basis of that decision:

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy
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Matrixx8 said:
You're point may be more valid than you realize.

Two examples:
The Nazis and Abortion

This denial of women's reproductive rights was elaborated to its full implecations during the Communist dictatorship in Rumania.Decree 770: Abortion Outlawed in Communist Romania -

That is one of the justifications for Roe vs Wade. The other is the legal basis of that decision:
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Welcome to DP, Matrixx8. And the Abortion Forum.

Thanks for the reply.

The abortion forum can get pretty wound up so put on your crash helmet and buckle up.

Oh, and thanks for the citations. They're appreciated by a number of members.
 
Thanks, RM

I understand why some people get worked up about abortion. Unfortunately, many of those same people seem to oppose the use of contraceptives and the teaching of sex education in schools, which is the best means of not having to opt for an abortion. I also find it surprising that many people who advocate less, not more, government would want to put that very same government in charge of women's reproductive choices.

Their reasoning moves in mysterious ways. :)
 
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