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Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’[W:43, 224]

Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Those Westboro Church nutters are full of lawyers and they are not remotely 'Christian' and are full of hate. No way I accord this "lawyer/reverend' an iota of respect or rationality.

Being Christian doesnt exempt people from being horrible people...Christianity is about living values of peace and brotherly love and forgiveness as the Lord messaged to us. And judgement is to be left to him. Such people as this person in the OP or the Westboro Church do not actually live Christian values....they live for themselves and their own hateful agendas.

So many forget that even if they *choose* to believe the unborn are 'God's Children,' most certainly women are as well.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

If you know someone is killing others every single day of their life and you know they have no intention of stopping there is nothing wrong in doing whatever is necessary to make them stop.

What 'others?'
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

No, I didn't. I removed duplicates of your words, duplicates of something which was irrelevant in the first place.

No, you removed the text in question to support your false claim that I support extremism and violence, when what I support is law and justice. Hardly an irrelevant distinction.

What you were implying about me - support for terrorism or vigilante action - was false.

...umm, no we weren't.

That's what this thread is about, and what the entire subforum is about.

I was responding to someone who challenged another poster about the type of person you are.

Inappropriate personal commentary, yes. I am aware.

And since I was not responding to you, but rather to someone who has already thanked me for providing some insight, I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea you get to tell me and the person I was responding to what we were talking about.

If I was incorrect in assuming you were talking about the legality of abortion / ex post facto laws in an abortion thread about someone's desire for Nuremberg style prosecution, then my error was only in assuming you wanted to talk about the topic of the thread at hand.

Although I don't think there's much disagreement on the matter of ex post facto laws, there's clearly plenty of disagreement about fixing the law so that abortionists and their clients go to prison as they deserve.

I'm not pro abortion. I'm actually pro life. But I'm also pro choice

There's no such thing as "pro-choice." And no one who supports legal abortion can possibly claim to support the natural human right to life.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

What 'others?'

Abortion victims. You know, the human beings you claim don't exist.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Abortion victims. You know, the human beings you claim don't exist.

Ah, of course they exist...unborn humans.

But they are not victims...they are not 'anyone', they are nothing but abstracts to society which is not remotely aware of them, and while there are those that "choose" to self-indulgently personify the unborn, that personal belief has no place being forced on others.


(quick! tell me how I am anthropomorphizing something that is 'human' again. I always love that!)
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Ah, of course they exist...unborn humans.

But they are not victims...they are not 'anyone'

:no:

More semantics involving the word "person," no doubt. Do note, of course, that a victim does not HAVE to be a person. And if you stick with personhood as a requirement for victimhood, then you are giving a free pass to any number of horrendous acts throughout history, because the targets weren't regarded as people so they too were "no one."

personify the unborn

That is not how the word "personify" is used. This has been explained to you. The English language is not so complex that you could not have grasped this by now.

"Personify" has nothing to do with "personhood." Never has, never will. "Personify" refers to exemplifying a concept.

"Personify" is different than "anthropomorphize," but "anthopomorphize" likewise has nothing to do with personhood; it has to do with attributing human characteristics to a non-human. The unborn are not non-humans.


QED, you cannot "personify" the unborn, nor can you "anthropomorphize" them, which at least actually fits the way you are trying to use "personify" in a sentence.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

The Neuremburg trials where held because the Germans and their allies committed crimes against humanity and war crimes. Abortion is neither of those things (even though the pro-life extremists claim abortion is, with no evidence or reason to back them up) and thus this lawyers words are nonsense, BS and stupid pro-life ranting with no basis for it whatsoever.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

:no:

More semantics involving the word "person," no doubt. Do note, of course, that a victim does not HAVE to be a person. And if you stick with personhood as a requirement for victimhood, then you are giving a free pass to any number of horrendous acts throughout history, because the targets weren't regarded as people so they too were "no one."


That is not how the word "personify" is used. This has been explained to you. The English language is not so complex that you could not have grasped this by now.

"Personify" has nothing to do with "personhood." Never has, never will. "Personify" refers to exemplifying a concept.

"Personify" is different than "anthropomorphize," but "anthopomorphize" likewise has nothing to do with personhood; it has to do with attributing human characteristics to a non-human. The unborn are not non-humans.


QED, you cannot "personify" the unborn, nor can you "anthropomorphize" them, which at least actually fits the way you are trying to use "personify" in a sentence.

Personify is to attribute characteristics of a person to something not a person.

Now, you may continue to do so, just as you may continue to use ALL the words in the English language improperly if you choose and as it seems you often do.

But someday you may realize that this is one reason your arguments generally fail (always that I've seen but I cant claim to have seen them all)

And while you continue to dismiss semantics, the correct usage of words in communication is important and I recommend people develop basic competetancy before participating in online discussions.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

No, you removed the text in question
No, it is literally right there in my post. No matter how many times you want to claim I removed your part about wanting the government to go after people (which is irrelevant because abortion is legal, and we weren't talking about making it legal in that particular thread of discssion), it was very clearly left in place in the second post of yours I quoted. To anyone who is not an idiot, this would very clearly indicate your position, I would not have to duplicate your position just to show your position.

to support your false claim that I support extremism and violence
That wasn't my claim. I've already told you my claim and, once again, you don't understand it.

What you were implying about me - support for terrorism or vigilante action - was false.
I was very careful to show I was not implying anything about you in particular. I used your words as an example of why some people would think those who claim to be pro life really are not pro life but simply extremists. Big difference.

I literally said, in my post (since you are so worried about context), I was not talking about any one particular person.

That's what this thread is about, and what the entire subforum is about.
But that's not what our particular thread of conversation was about. You cannot unilaterally change a discussion you were not apart of and then claim we were wrong for the discussion we had. That's ludicrous.

Inappropriate personal commentary, yes. I am aware.
So you recognize what we were talking about, but are now trying to claim that's not what we were talking about, just so you can try to deflect from your own words.

Wow...

If I was incorrect in assuming you were talking about the legality of abortion / ex post facto laws in an abortion thread about someone's desire for Nuremberg style prosecution, then my error was only in assuming you wanted to talk about the topic of the thread at hand.
No, your error would be in not bothering to read a thread before you respond to a post within it. If you have not figured out by now that, on occasion, conversations loosely related to threads occur in Internet forum threads, then there's nothing I can do to help you on that.

The fact of the matter is there was a side conversation occurring about you. I was very careful not to imply anything about you in particular, but rather used your own words, completely with all context when taken together (no matter how much you try to obfuscate the point), that some people might be led to believe not everyone who claims to be pro life is pro life, but rather can fall on the extremist scale.

There's no such thing as "pro-choice."
Well that's just stupid. Of course there is. But I'll remember you saying that so the next time someone asks if people really do say extreme things on this subject, I can point them back to this statement.

Of course there is pro choice. I'm pro choice and the choice I would always make is to have the child. You can be choose to never abort and still be pro choice, it's not an either/or situation.

And no one who supports legal abortion can possibly claim to support the natural human right to life.
You can support the right for people to choose what they want to believe and make the decisions which are best for their life. I should not get to choose what medical decisions are made by a teenage girl in Chicago any more than I should get to choose what medical decisions are made by a 40 year old couple in Miami. Those are not my choices to make. I do not live their lives, I am not aware of all the circumstances.

You can be pro choice and still hope everyone makes the choice you want. I'm not sure what reality in which you live where there's only two positions (forced birth or abortion), but it's just not real. In fact, it's downright asinine. And it is such positions which suggest to people one is an extremist.
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Personify is to attribute characteristics of a person to something not a person.

Now, you may continue to do so, just as you may continue to use ALL the words in the English language improperly if you choose and as it seems you often do.

But someday you may realize that this is one reason your arguments generally fail (always that I've seen but I cant claim to have seen them all)

And while you continue to dismiss semantics, the correct usage of words in communication is important and I recommend people develop basic competetancy before participating in online discussions.

From what I've seen online since 2002, almost everybody who participates in online discussions has adequate writing ability to communicate a point. Semantics sometimes matter very much, as you know. because of the frequent discussions of the acronym "ZEF," "person," and so on.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

The Neuremburg trials where held because the Germans and their allies committed crimes against humanity and war crimes. Abortion is neither of those things (even though the pro-life extremists claim abortion is, with no evidence or reason to back them up) and thus this lawyers words are nonsense, BS and stupid pro-life ranting with no basis for it whatsoever.

I believe that the elective abortions in the millions and millions are a crime against humanity itself. I am not an extremist, and I'm also not stupid; I simply believe that all human life--every human life--is valuable.

Remember "safe, legal, and rare"? What happened to the "rare" part?
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

I believe that the elective abortions in the millions and millions are a crime against humanity itself.

Remember "safe, legal, and rare"? What happened to the "rare" part?

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_156183.html
The U.S. abortion rate has declined by more than one-third over the past two decades to a record low, federal officials reported Friday.

Abortions fell 35 percent between 1990 and 2010, reaching 17.7 procedures per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44, said report lead author Sally Curtin, a statistician for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics.

That's the lowest abortion rate since the CDC began tracking the procedure in 1976, Curtin said.

"Abortion has been on a nearly steady decline since the rate peaked in 1980," she said.

The pregnancy rate also hit an all-time low in 2010, according to the report.

Many factors likely contribute to the reduction in abortions, but increased use of highly effective birth control is one of the most important trends, said report co-author Kathryn Kost, principal research scientist at the Guttmacher Institute, a sexual and reproductive health think-tank.
Unfortunately, bans on abortion do little to nothing and only work to further the underground abortion that occurred much more often before roe.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

I believe that the elective abortions in the millions and millions are a crime against humanity itself.

Remember "safe, legal, and rare"? What happened to the "rare" part?

Human rights orgs disagree and believe stopping choice would be a crime against humanity.
There are less than a million a year in the US and less than .01% of sex ends in abortion, that is pretty rare. :shrug:
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

I believe that the elective abortions in the millions and millions are a crime against humanity itself. I am not an extremist, and I'm also not stupid; I simply believe that all human life--every human life--is valuable.

Remember "safe, legal, and rare"? What happened to the "rare" part?
This is not what we need.
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_abortion/en/
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
Nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, and nearly all unsafe abortions (98%) occur in developing countries. In the developing world, 56% of all abortions are unsafe, compared with just 6% in the developed world. [1]
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

I believe that the elective abortions in the millions and millions are a crime against humanity itself. I am not an extremist, and I'm also not stupid; I simply believe that all human life--every human life--is valuable.

Remember "safe, legal, and rare"? What happened to the "rare" part?

Legal, safe and nobody's business but the pregnant woman.

I do not think it is a crime against humanity because a zygote/embryo are not part of humanity IMHO.

And the rare part is mostly societies problem, with good birth control and decent sexual education, etc. etc. etc.

And the extremists are people who want to prosecute, jail/murder/deny women their constitutionally given rights because of their personal opinion.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

I do not think it is a crime against humanity because a zygote/embryo are not part of humanity IMHO.

That isn't a matter of opinion. That's like you saying 2+2=5 in your humble opinion.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

No, it is literally right there in my post.

Nope. You removed exactly what I said you removed.

That wasn't my claim.

Yes, it very plainly was. You can't tapdance around that truth.

But that's not what our particular thread of conversation was about.

Again, sorry for assuming you were posting about the thread topic in any way. In the future I will assume your goal is otherwise.

No, your error would be in not bothering to read a thread before you respond to a post within it.

:roll: I am posting about the thread topic.

The fact of the matter is there was a side conversation occurring about you.

I noticed, of course. It wasn't appropriate, and your plain as day implications and accusations were not accurate. Having established that your claims about me were false, I am satisfied.

Well that's just stupid. Of course there is.

So you say, but virtually no one opposes the economic concept of freedom of choice, and of course that concept has no relevance when it comes to unjustified acts of force against other human beings.

The label of "pro-choice" which pro-abortion folks claim for themselves has always been a misnomer; it implies something inaccurate about them and something inaccurate about their opponents.


This is where I usually try to tie everything back into the thread topic. I'm not even sure how if you're not interested in debating the legality of abortion and the guy quoted in the OP was opining his support for ex post facto prosecutions of abortion doctors.

I guess there isn't much to actually debate about that, though, since no one here is willing to argue in favor of ex post facto prosecution.
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Nope. You removed exactly what I said you removed.
Because I already had what you said I removed. I removed a duplicate, not your position. I've said this multiple times now. For someone who seems to have no problem ignoring my actual arguments in favor of created straw men, you sure are really hung up on me not saying twice your position.

Yes, it very plainly was. You can't tapdance around that truth.
No, it was not. I find it hilarious you're complaining that I "ignored context" because I didn't post your position twice in the same post, but now you have completely ignored my position, even though I've provided it many times.

Methinks the pot ought not call the kettle black.

Again, sorry for assuming you were posting about the thread topic in any way.
We were talking about the thread topic. Who said we weren't? As I have already said, and I see you have once again ignored, it was a conversation loosely related to the thread topic, a conversation which arose somewhat organically. Just because it was about something related to the thread topic, that doesn't mean it wasn't about the thread topic.

I think it's hilarious how you keep claiming I misrepresented you because I didn't post the same thing twice, while you have now repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, even though I've corrected it multiple times.

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the thread topic. It's that simple.

I am posting about the thread topic.
But we were talking about a different tangent of the thread topic. So for you to claim we were wrong when you didn't bother to understand what we were talking about is quite head scratching.

I noticed, of course. It wasn't appropriate,
And I was not a part of it.

and your plain as day implications and accusations were not accurate.
I very explicitly mentioned it had nothing to do with any one particular poster. Once more, you ignore the context.

Having established that your claims about me were false, I am satisfied.
Since I didn't make any claims about you, I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from here. But whatever makes you happy.

So you say
And so is accurate. Pro choice very much exists.

The label of "pro-choice" which pro-abortion folks claim for themselves has always been a misnomer; it implies something inaccurate about them and something inaccurate about their opponents.
Umm...no, it just means they believe a person or couple should have the right to choose what is best for them. You labeling those who are pro-choice as being pro-abortion is downright offensive, and is the kind of rhetoric which would lead a person to suspect one is an extremist. I don't want babies to be aborted and I would never do it myself. But I'm not arrogant or tyrannical enough to assume my opinions and desires are more important than everyone else's opinions and desires. And I would hope no one else would feel that way either.

I'm pro choice, not pro abortion. And I try to be as pro life as I can, though I freely admit there are times and situations where I'm okay with someone dying. You thinking pro choice and pro abortion are the same is silly. I'm sure there are pro abortion people, but not many. There are pro abortion, pro choice, pro life and anti choice people out there. They are completely distinct categories.

I'm not even sure how if you're not interested in debating the legality of abortion
I was interested in addressing the concept of extremism on the subject of abortion, a conversation which arose during discussion of whether or not we should punish those who engage in them.

Once more, if you would read the posts before you responded, it would save everyone a lot of time.
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

No, it was not.

Well, you say that. The thing is, I don't believe your obvious deception.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

What 'others?'

If you wish to complain over word choice you will need to find someone that cares to deal with it.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_156183.html

Unfortunately, bans on abortion do little to nothing and only work to further the underground abortion that occurred much more often before roe.

Of course it's almost a failure of sorts when you only decrease abortion numbers by women getting pregnant less. I won't consider it a real success until the decreases in abortion numbers are because women respect life more. The fact that you need to create means that make it so women aren't offered the chance to kill their unborn to even start to decrease abortion numbers by any noticeable amount is a problem in and of itself.
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Yeah, the KKK is well known for taking action to defend human life from killers. :screwy

They believe they are purifying the world and so do you. You are both wrong.
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Of course it's almost a failure of sorts when you only decrease abortion numbers by women getting pregnant less. I won't consider it a real success until the decreases in abortion numbers are because women respect life more, and not just because they aren't getting pregnant. The fact that you need to create means that make it so women aren't offered the chance to kill their unborn to low the amount of abortions is a problem in and of itself.

Who are you to judge women who believe an embryo is not yet human? Most women abort because they respect life and believe children should be WANTED. You have no such compunction and believe women should be forced to bear children they can't care for or don't want. That is far more evil.
 
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Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Who are you to judge women who believe an embryo is not yet human? Most women abort because they respect life and believe children should be WANTED..

Respecting your offspring by killing them. Well, isn't that just special.

An embryo is human and anyone that says otherwise is ignorant of the topic. A child being wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with anything but the woman's feelings towards it. If she can't get past her own selfish idiocies she has problems that perhaps she needs to work on.

You have no such compunction and believe women should be forced to bear children they can't care for or don't want. That is far more evil.

Yeah, telling people to grow up and deal with the reality that life doesn't always give them what they want is evil. Yup, sure it is. :roll:
 
Re: Pro-Life Attorney: ‘We Need a Nuremberg for Abortion Doctors’

Who are you to judge women who believe an embryo is not yet human?

You're asking who's fit to judge folks who are ignorant of basic scientific fact?

Folks who are oriented to reality and know the scientific fact in question. They're in a pretty good place to judge.
 
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