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It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle[W:95]

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jbander

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It also looks like they are part of the problem. 70% of Abortions are to Christians. About 67% of our men population are Christian and about 76% of the women in this country are Christian. 76% of Christian assumed that the reaction from the church would be cold, judgmental and condemning. Only 7% would even discuss it with the church. In general terms, the Christian women have abortion at the same rate as everyone else. The difference seems to be with income.
I would say that the condemning should go to the church.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

jbander said:
It also looks like they are part of the problem. 70% of Abortions are to Christians. About 67% of our men population are Christian and about 76% of the women in this country are Christian. 76% of Christian assumed that the reaction from the church would be cold, judgmental and condemning. Only 7% would even discuss it with the church. In general terms, the Christian women have abortion at the same rate as everyone else. The difference seems to be with income.
I would say that the condemning should go to the church.
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The church? Which church is THE church?
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Beaudreaux said:
The church? Which church is THE church?
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The one run run by Xenu obviously since jbanders numbers are unsurprisingly off the mark and without citation
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Beaudreaux said:
The church? Which church is THE church?
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No clarification + no valid source = Invalid OP.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Beaudreaux said:
The church? Which church is THE church?
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THE Church is generally a reference to the Roman Catholic Church. They consider themselves the only true Church because they were established by a direct blood relation of Jesus, James The Righteous, who was his brother.

If you've ever read the Catholic Handbook, which i am confident that you haven't, there are many aspects of Protestantism that they consider heresies. for example, Sola Scriptura, or the Bible alone, is considered a heresy.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Are you IN THE KNOW: Characteristics of U.S. Women Having Abortions

More than seven in 10 U.S. women obtaining an abortion report a religious affiliation (37% protestant, 28% Catholic and 7% other), and 25% attend religious services at least once a month.[38] The abortion rate for protestant women is 15 per 1,000 women, while Catholic women have a slightly higher rate, 22 per 1,000.[32]
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Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

I have a negative reaction anytime I see research by the Guttmacher institute. I'd like to see this research by someone a little less involved.

Not that this would be all that surprising. Lots of people across all demographics are getting abortions? No way!
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

cfreeman said:
I have a negative reaction anytime I see research by the Guttmacher institute. I'd like to see this research by someone a little less involved.

Not that this would be all that surprising. Lots of people across all demographics are getting abortions? No way!
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Guttmacher doesn't offer propaganda. So you might want to try Lifenews.com. They'll provide you with all of the misinformation and blatantly dishonest information about abortion than you can consume.

Women of every walk of life have abortions.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Removable Mind said:
Women of every walk of life have abortions.
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I think that's pretty obvious even if we didn't have this research. But the implication is that something is acceptable just because lots of people do it. That is not the case.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

cfreeman said:
I think that's pretty obvious even if we didn't have this research. But the implication is that something is acceptable just because lots of people do it. That is not the case.
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It's acceptable because a women has the right to do what she wants with her body, and that includes removal of the fetus.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

cfreeman said:
I think that's pretty obvious even if we didn't have this research. But the implication is that something is acceptable just because lots of people do it. That is not the case.
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You mean that abortion, based on your personal beliefs, isn't acceptable...right?
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

David_N said:
It's acceptable because a women has the right to do what she wants with her body, and that includes removal of the fetus.
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Yawn.

Her kid's body isn't her body, and human beings aren't property.

Mothers and fathers have obligations to provide for the offspring they create.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

JayDubya said:
Yawn.

Her kid's body isn't her body, and human beings aren't property.

Mothers and fathers have obligations to provide for the offspring they create.
Click to expand...

Oh good, so you're all for assistance programs that help poor mothers who can't afford the kid!
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

David_N said:
It's acceptable because a women has the right to do what she wants with her body, and that includes removal of the fetus.
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The woman also has a right to own a Corvette, that does not mean that the taxpayers must help to fund that purchase. The "logic" of the left seems to be that it saves money to pay for abortions because the alternative is to otherwise support both the woman during pregnancy and the child after it is born.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

ttwtt78640 said:
The woman also has a right to own a Corvette, that does not mean that the taxpayers must help to fund that purchase. The "logic" of the left seems to be that it saves money to pay for abortions because the alternative is to otherwise support both the woman during pregnancy and the child after it is born.
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Well, you have stated an undeniable fact:
it saves money to pay for abortions
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You're using a really bad example.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

ttwtt78640 said:
The woman also has a right to own a Corvette, that does not mean that the taxpayers must help to fund that purchase. The "logic" of the left seems to be that it saves money to pay for abortions because the alternative is to otherwise support both the woman during pregnancy and the child after it is born.
Click to expand...

You are against taxpayers being responsible for the costs of abortions (on demand)...right?

Your claim about THE LEFT'S LOGIC apparently doesn't motivate you to do the math regarding the cost of prenatal care, giving birth, postnatal care, and all expenses of raising a child until adulthood.

Now, there is a real math associated with taxpayers having to foot the bill of providing support to unwanted children. But that's when pro-life jumps in and screams - "Women who have unwanted kids are just being sexually irresponsible and dumping that in the lap of the taxpayers."

For the sake of argument let's say that every single unwanted pregnancy is the result of an act of irresponsibility on the part of all women.

So what power does any institution have to prevent all unwanted pregnancies from occurring?

Should the government somehow invent a way to temporarily sterile females at birth and then undo it when the woman says that she wants a child? Then the government would have to do an eligibility test to see if any given woman can support a child in a manner where government would never have to financially intervene.

What's your fix for this dilemma?
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

David_N said:
Well, you have stated an undeniable fact:

You're using a really bad example.
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Let's use another elective medical procedure, in place of the Corvette, then. A woman has a right to have elective cosmetic surgery but that does not mean that the taxpayers should fund that for those too poor to pay for it.

The point remains that "access to" many things is based on the individual's responsibility to pay for those goods/services. My objection is to the left's idea that one is being denied "access to" X simply because the taxpayers will not cover the cost of X.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

David_N said:
Oh good, so you're all for assistance programs that help poor mothers who can't afford the kid!
Click to expand...

Why no, I'm not a socialist, after all.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

JayDubya said:
Why no, I'm not a socialist, after all.
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Then you don't value life.

It's quite simple.

A: The poor will continued to be assisted as much as the State can handle.

B: Abortion will never be outlawed in the US and all those States that piecemeal restrictions will eventually have their ass handed to them in court.

You will lose both battles my dear.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

ttwtt78640 said:
Let's use another elective medical procedure, in place of the Corvette, then. A woman has a right to have elective cosmetic surgery but that does not mean that the taxpayers should fund that for those too poor to pay for it.

The point remains that "access to" many things is based on the individual's responsibility to pay for those goods/services. My objection is to the left's idea that one is being denied "access to" X simply because the taxpayers will not cover the cost of X.
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Again, a really bad example. Cosmetic surgery isn't comparable to a women caring for her child with assistance from the state. Tough luck, taxpayers have to pay taxes that go to help those who are less fortunate.
My objection is to the left's idea that one is being denied "access to" X simply because the taxpayers will not cover the cost of X.
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I don't think anyone has argued people are being denied "access" to anything. We do frequently argue over access to abortion though.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

jetboogieman said:
then you don't value life.
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Of course I do. We've been through this.

I respect human rights and you don't.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

JayDubya said:
Yawn.
Click to expand...

Be bored if you like; it doesn't strengthen your argument, though.

Her kid's body isn't her body, and human beings aren't property.

Mothers and fathers have obligations to provide for the offspring they create.
Click to expand...

No, they have an obligation to provide for it after the first month or two after conception (maybe a little longer in some states). Before that, they have no obligations to provide for their fetus.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

Removable Mind said:
You are against taxpayers being responsible for the costs of abortions (on demand)...right?

Your claim about THE LEFT'S LOGIC apparently doesn't motivate you to do the math regarding the cost of prenatal care, giving birth, postnatal care, and all expenses of raising a child until adulthood.

Now, there is a real math associated with taxpayers having to foot the bill of providing support to unwanted children. But that's when pro-life jumps in and screams - "Women who have unwanted kids are just being sexually irresponsible and dumping that in the lap of the taxpayers."

For the sake of argument let's say that every single unwanted pregnancy is the result of an act of irresponsibility on the part of all women.

So what power does any institution have to prevent all unwanted pregnancies from occurring?

Should the government somehow invent a way to temporarily sterile females at birth and then undo it when the woman says that she wants a child? Then the government would have to do an eligibility test to see if any given woman can support a child in a manner where government would never have to financially intervene.

What's your fix for this dilemma?
Click to expand...

The same "fix" as for one that has a pet that they cannot (or will not) properly care for. The state takes custody and may well bring criminal charges. You are not rewarded with funds, guidance or assistance for not properly caring for a pet, in fact, the opposite is true - you normally are punished for not doing so.

Stating that since we have foolish policy X then we need foolish policy Y to lessen its impact seems to be your argument here.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

ellesdee said:
Be bored if you like; it doesn't strengthen your argument, though.
Click to expand...

Well, it's not like an adamantine argument needs any strengthening.

No, they have an obligation to provide for it after the first month or two after conception (maybe a little longer in some states). Before that, they have no obligations to provide for their fetus.
Click to expand...

No, they have an obligation to the offspring they create. Failure of the state to compel this obligation doesn't change fundamental parental or personal responsibilities for one's own actions, it's just grounds to fix the failures of the state.
 
Re: It looks like abortion opponents from the church are loosing the battle

JayDubya said:
Why no, I'm not a socialist, after all.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes... the pro-life mentality--criticize women who want to abort a fetus because they can't afford to to raise a child, then criticize women who had a baby they couldn't afford.
 
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