• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Personhood doesn't matter?

No. If I have a moral issue with abortion I have an obligation to talk about it and explain why it is such an atrocity. Same reason we protest against mass shooters or terrorists. Those things are moral "bads" and so we vehemently protest against them.

So, is it a good thing for society if over half of pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion?

I'm trying to get to everyone's posts. So many replies.
 
And really, you're right. Banning abortion today would, at least in the short term, have tragic effects. The goal of pro-lifers should be to make people realize how unthinkable abortion really is. It's ban would surely follow.

An uphill battle to be sure, but what greater cause?
 
No. If I have a moral issue with abortion I have an obligation to talk about it and explain why it is such an atrocity. Same reason we protest against mass shooters or terrorists. Those things are moral "bads" and so we vehemently protest against them.

Protest all you want but it is immoral to support the govt acting in a tyrannical fashion by exercising a power it has not been granted

So, is it a good thing for society if over half of pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion?

I do not think that is true. I think you're exagerrating. Do you have any links?

However, I see no harm to society even if it is true.
 
No. If I have a moral issue with abortion I have an obligation to talk about it and explain why it is such an atrocity. Same reason we protest against mass shooters or terrorists. Those things are moral "bads" and so we vehemently protest against them.

So, is it a good thing for society if over half of pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion?

I'm trying to get to everyone's posts. So many replies.

The same reason you advocate FOR abortion is why I advocate against it. I assume you feel a moral obligation to protect abortion because you see it as being absolutely necessary as well as a good thing for society.
 
Hmm. I think we're having a fundamental misunderstanding from the start.

What I don't understand is the position that even if the fetus is a person, the right to abortion trumps any and all rights that person would have.

I understand why women would want an abortion. The same reasons, like the ones you cited above. But if we're talking about ending the lives of human persons, does that change anything? Or doesn't it?

Though it doesn't have a specific starting point, officially speaking: personhood (to me) begins when the mother chooses to KEEP that unborn child.

If she chooses from day 1 that she's going to have the baby - then that's when she grants personhood to her child. That's the holy-matra of motherhood: creating offspring and giving them a place in the world and that come with significant authority and responsibility that no state (government) can override.

Of course - my view isn't carte blanche...

I believe that there is a cut-off point at which she forfeits her right to grant personhood and it's automatically granted (for lack of a better wording on the concept). I don't support late-term abortions, only first trimester abortions. 3 months, in my view, is plenty sufficient for a woman to A) realize she's pregnant, B) decide what she will do, C) see to what's necessary. After that point she has simply accepted the status of pregnancy save for extreme circumstances such as health issues.

Of course, I support that + the concept of having a waiting-limit before abortions.

In essence: I do not support walk-in quick turn-around abortions if things have progressed past a certain point (where the unborn is developing past the earliest stages of cellular division.)

I also do not support the idea of repeat-abortions. All rights, in my view, are amendable by governing authorities. If rights are abused they can be ended. We deal the death penalty and even starve disabled people (legally) to death . . . ergo I view that the right to chose comes with such considerations as well. I think women who fail to be proactively involved in reproductive health care and use abortions as birth control on a frequent and routine basis should be brought up on charges (such a thing doesn't really exist - but it should). And in the same manner I believe that people who have an excess of children they cannot support (sizable families with no effort to prevent pregnancy - reliance on the state for support - etc) should be a crime, as well.

So my pro-choice views come with a lot of other opinions on parenting and conception that even pro-lifers wouldn't get behind.

I support giving people the ability to govern their life to IMPROVE their life.

But if they abuse this ability and privileges therein they should lose the right to do so.

[Obviously the old adage of 'they'll get them in filthy back alleys anyway so why not' isn't why I am pro-choice].
 
The same reason you advocate FOR abortion is why I advocate against it. I assume you feel a moral obligation to protect abortion because you see it as being absolutely necessary as well as a good thing for society.

I do not advocate for abortions. What a pregnant woman does is none of my business. What I advocate for is abortion *rights* and I do so because the constitution does not grant the govt the power to ban abortions.

I oppose tyranny
 
I guess I should clarify. Their point is that it doesn't matter if they are objectively a person. They hold the right to abortion as superseding the right to life even if we're talking about two distinct human persons.

Ok. Why do the unborn's (imagined) rights supersede those of women?

The govt cannot force women to remain pregnant without violating some, even all, of their rights. Life, liberty (The positive enjoyment of social, political, or economic rights and privileges), pursuit of happiness, due process, privacy, etc.

Do you believe that the unborn are more entitled to those things than women?

They cannot be treated equally, legally. So that means one is 'less equal.' As a pro-choice advocate, I clearly see the unborn as less equal.

After birth is when someone's rights can be upheld without violating the rights of someone else (without due process). Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.
 
Trying to ignore the psychological trauma and wellbeing of a rape victim only does a disservice to women who have been in that exact situation - regardless of their end CHOICE.

Some women in that situation CHOSE to have the baby. Their decision is ALSO diminished when people refuse to SEE such a choice as being a notable CHOICE that was made.

By holding the view that 'you have NO choice' it creates a psychological prison for the woman - she lost her voice, her value as a human, and her individuality the moment she was raped.

Thus giving her rapist the MOST power over her and perpetuating her psychological prison.

No one else can tell such a woman how to feel or what to do and then have the nerve to judge her for being human.

I'm sorry, AS, you misunderstood (and I totally get why). The argument was that the baby itself was just like a rapist, not that it was conceived from rape. I'll concede the rape exception mainly to get it out of the way so we can talk about the vast majority of abortions that occur that have nothing to do with rape.
 
Protest all you want but it is immoral to support the govt acting in a tyrannical fashion by exercising a power it has not been granted



I do not think that is true. I think you're exagerrating. Do you have any links?

However, I see no harm to society even if it is true.

I think we have very different definitions of what is immoral.

Politifact says it's true.

It doesn't make you pause a little to hear that black women are aborting at such a high rate? Maybe we've failed them and let them fall into despair. That's on us as a society. But I wonder what leaders, teachers, politicians, scientists and others could have been in that 50%.
 
I'm sorry, AS, you misunderstood (and I totally get why). The argument was that the baby itself was just like a rapist, not that it was conceived from rape. I'll concede the rape exception mainly to get it out of the way so we can talk about the vast majority of abortions that occur that have nothing to do with rape.

I was just using your post to comment on 'rape' in general - sorry that didn't come across the right way. I wasn't trying to argue your statement.

Rape and abortion is very different, in my view, than abortion and other means of conception purely because of the nature of the conception being rape.
 
Also, I need to ask this question now or else I'll forget it by morning.

If a fetus right to life is subjected to the will of her mother, are other rights subjected?

There are people out there with body dysmorphia who think they should only have one hand. I think I've heard of cases where people would amputate their limbs because they didn't think they were supposed to have them.

Does a mother have a right to amputate/mutilate a fetus in the womb? Say the technology existed and there were doctors willing to do it. Should a mother be able to have her fetus' formed in the way she thinks it should be?

Why or why not?

Also I'd like to see anyone's thoughts on this.
 
No. If I have a moral issue with abortion I have an obligation to talk about it and explain why it is such an atrocity. Same reason we protest against mass shooters or terrorists. Those things are moral "bads" and so we vehemently protest against them.

So, is it a good thing for society if over half of pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion?

I'm trying to get to everyone's posts. So many replies.

Can you show any harm to society that abortion has done? You mention a couple of specifics, but dont mention why they are harmful. How is it a bad thing for society, in your example, if over half of all pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion? Please provide some statistics or links to articles.
 
I think we have very different definitions of what is immoral.

Politifact says it's true.

It doesn't make you pause a little to hear that black women are aborting at such a high rate? Maybe we've failed them and let them fall into despair. That's on us as a society.

Your link goes to an article that talks about black abortions and births. You said
is it a good thing for society if over half of pregnancies in NYC end in elective abortion?

And whether it makes me pause or not is irrelevant. My personal feelings do not change the fact that the govt does not have the power to ban abortions

But I wonder what leaders, teachers, politicians, scientists and others could have been in that 50%.

Ever wonder how many drug addicts, serial killers and divorce lawyers might have been in that 50%?
 
I don't have those statistics, as I've never seen a reason to research them. I may tomorrow if I feel like it.
 
Your link goes to an article that talks about black abortions and births. You said


And whether it makes me pause or not is irrelevant. My personal feelings do not change the fact that the govt does not have the power to ban abortions



Ever wonder how many drug addicts, serial killers and divorce lawyers might have been in that 50%?

Oh I apologize. I meant to specify that it was black women who abort more of their babies than are born in NYC.

I guess I have a little optimism about those children's future. Maybe it's unfounded.

Also, it strikes me a little racist that you would suggest that those black children would have grown up to be drug addicts, divorce lawyers and serial killers and that so their lives were better ended before they began. Maybe you didn't intend that.
 
Oh I apologize. I meant to specify that it was black women who abort more of their babies than are born in NYC.

I guess I have a little optimism about those children's future. Maybe it's unfounded.

Also, it strikes me a little racist that you would suggest that those black children would have grown up to be drug addicts, divorce lawyers and serial killers and that so their lives were better ended before they began. Maybe you didn't intend that.

I would say the same thing about aborted white babies. After all, there are more white drug addicts, serial killers and divorce lawyers than black ones.

Plus, I never said it is better to end their lives before they began (which is an odd way to describe the unborn seeing as you think they are "persons" - are persons humans who have had no life?) I make no moral judgements about other people's decisions on this matter. I leave that to you and the other anti-choicers
 
It was more of a colloquialism saying their lives had "ended before they began." I think you probably knew that.
 
Also, I need to ask this question now or else I'll forget it by morning.

If a fetus right to life is subjected to the will of her mother, are other rights subjected?

There are people out there with body dysmorphia who think they should only have one hand. I think I've heard of cases where people would amputate their limbs because they didn't think they were supposed to have them.

Does a mother have a right to amputate/mutilate a fetus in the womb? Say the technology existed and there were doctors willing to do it. Should a mother be able to have her fetus' formed in the way she thinks it should be?

Why or why not?

I'd like to see discussion of this.

Consider this woman. She wanted to be blind all her life, so she had a doctor use drain cleaner to blind her.

What if she becomes pregnant, and decides her baby is supposed to be blind? If the technology is available, should she be able to blind her baby in utero? What legal reasons are there to stop her? Shouldn't she have authority over that fetus' health/life?

Why should she not be able to blind her child?
 
It was more of a colloquialism saying their lives had "ended before they began." I think you probably knew that.

yes, I did but it struck as me as emphasizing the notion that a person's life begins at birth
 
yes, I did but it struck as me as emphasizing the notion that a person's life begins at birth

I've heard this phrase used for people who died in high school. "They died before their life had even really begun." So, no, I wasn't conceding that unborn children are somehow not alive. Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand though.
 
I've heard this phrase used for people who died in high school. "They died before their life had even really begun." So, no, I wasn't conceding that unborn children are somehow not alive. Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand though.

Fair enough
 
Back
Top Bottom