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To pain or not to pain. What difference at this point does it make?

That battle is lost in the courts. They are more concerned with power than moral relevance, playing to voters rather than any sense of right and wrong.

So then most voters also agree that elective abortion should be legal and that the unborn are not persons and have no rights.

Then it does seem to be the right decision.
 
If a human prenatal life has not yet developed the characteristics that will make it a human being, mind telling me what characteristics unequivocally and scientifically will make it a human being. Where's your scientific source from relevant scientific disciplines?

Law is man-made. It's not a measure of objective truth. Like your tap dancing though.

Yes that's what I wrote.

Human beings have consciousness for one thing. Compassion, evil, love, hope, determination, the beginnings of critical thinking, manipulating their environment, etc etc etc etc. But here's a good Reader's Digest version:

Lursa said:
After birth is when someone's rights can be upheld without violating the rights of someone else (without due process). Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

After birth, society can act on the unborn without imposing on the mother and the unborn can act on society (which it does immediately upon birth, crying, manipulating when hungry, wet, etc)
 
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I see you didn't read my OP. I've already explained to you about the pro-abortion fallacy of pain and you think you still have a logical argument?

Mine didnt substantially differ from the 'results' of your explanation, lol.

I see you dont recognize it.
 
Nobody put a gun to the head of abortive women to force them to get pregnant. Yes, people do stuff that hurts all the time, for all kinds of good reasons but they cannot dismember another human being, while still alive and kicking, for their convenience.

Exactly when does all this "dismembering" take place?

Are you honestly saying that you posted her in this sub-forum, with a huge declaration about fetal pain, and you dont even know that more than 90% of all abortions consist of flushing a pea-sized embryo/early fetus from the womb? Detaching it painlessly, WHOLE, and washing it out? Surely you must!

And you also must know that the very late term abortions you refer to with 'dismemberment' are uncommon and only done out of medical necessity? (The mother's healh or a severely defective fetus)? Surely you know this too? That these are not 'elective' abortions? They must be devastating to the family to have hoped for that birth and to have to go thru a very painful and traumatic (for the mother) procedure? (And of course we already discussed that those fetuses are anesthetized and they also feel no pain...only the mother/family suffers :( )
 
Ladies and gentlemen, the issue of pain is a logical fallacy. It's a red herring just like the issues of personhood, sentience, viability, birth, citizenship, etc.... Don't fall for the pro-abortion ruse and be misled in a wild goose chase that leads you far away from the actual and the only relevant issue of what a human prenatal life is.

If it's not a human being, who cares what pro-abortion crowd want to do to it. We don't protest at the liposuction clinics or cancer treatment wards, do we?

Why? Because we know those were just human tissues. We are scientifically educated and informed. They aren't. Or they are simply being deceptive.

If it is a human being at conception, then you can't kill a human being without just cause, PERIOD, no matter your circumstances or boo-hoo-isms.

The ability to feel pain or be cognitively aware of it is merely a neurophysiological event. It's development during the prenatal course of life is present in all mammals. It's absence is either pending or due to genetic defects.

The ability of my dog to feel and be aware of pain, even possessing the ability to cognitively recall past experience, does not transform my dog into a human being or a human person, does it?

Children who are conceived and born with congenital inability to feel pain with anhidrosis (CIPA) due to a simple genetic mutation that prevents sensory neurons to develop and survive, does not mean that those children are not human beings or human persons, does it?

The children's inability to feel pain for moral being is a reason for extra parental and caregiver attention and protection. However, in pro-abortion principle, every deficiency that could be used is hijacked and turned upside down against the prenatal human life for its self-serving cause. Instead of providing extra care and protection, they used it to justify for their killing.

Isn't that disgusting?

OK, ladies and gentlemen, I hereby present you the world's most famous tap dancing performance. Now, let the show begin.




um sorry but

personhood, and sentience,

seem to be what maters most

species seems unimportant merely the result of a particular combination o dna

so just cause as far as i cant tell is the mother wanting the abortion
 
I'm with you. I think we should extend abortions out to 91 trimesters. That way when useless liberal children move back in to their parents' houses because they can't get a job, the parents can just off them. After all, pain response is no big deal, and they are just a collection of cells anyway. I certainly have no use for them...

you wacky vegetarians
 
So then most voters also agree that elective abortion should be legal and that the unborn are not persons and have no rights.

Then it does seem to be the right decision.

Ah yes, mob mentality. That's definitely the way to go.
 
Actually, it's perfectly legal to kill a human being who is harming or using your body without your consent, if that is necessary to end the assault immediately.

Consent was given. There is no assault.

Any harm of pregancy is self-inflicted.


If you want people to read what you have to say, don't employ bigoted slurs.
 
I'm with you. I think we should extend abortions out to 91 trimesters. That way when useless liberal children move back in to their parents' houses because they can't get a job, the parents can just off them. After all, pain response is no big deal, and they are just a collection of cells anyway. I certainly have no use for them...

Heh. Reminds me of the Pre-Persons by Phillip K. Dick. One of the only projects of his Hollywood has never touched. Gee, I wonder why?
 
um sorry but

personhood, and sentience,

seem to be what maters most

species seems unimportant merely the result of a particular combination o dna

so just cause as far as i cant tell is the mother wanting the abortion
Animals are sentient beings also. So, what's your point? Personhood is a phantom boogeymen propped up to disguise as something it is not. You can't make substance out of a shadow, can you?

The particular DNA combination is what makes you what you are and who you are. It may be unimportant to you so as to justify your abortion cause, but to forensic scientists, it's what differentiates between human tissues from tissues of other life form. It's also what differentiates you from all other people on this planet; thereby identifying you in case you got murdered and your body is reduced to bits and pieces. So, apparent you are wrong on that point like any other proabortion points.

About abortion as just cause, you say? Yeah, Susan Smith also believed that drowning her two sons in the lake is a just cause to pursue her new life with a rich man without the baggage.
 
Exactly when does all this "dismembering" take place?

Are you honestly saying that you posted her in this sub-forum, with a huge declaration about fetal pain, and you dont even know that more than 90% of all abortions consist of flushing a pea-sized embryo/early fetus from the womb? Detaching it painlessly, WHOLE, and washing it out? Surely you must!

And you also must know that the very late term abortions you refer to with 'dismemberment' are uncommon and only done out of medical necessity? (The mother's healh or a severely defective fetus)? Surely you know this too? That these are not 'elective' abortions? They must be devastating to the family to have hoped for that birth and to have to go thru a very painful and traumatic (for the mother) procedure? (And of course we already discussed that those fetuses are anesthetized and they also feel no pain...only the mother/family suffers :( )
Dismemberment are uncommon? For decades, have you not heard from the abortionists' horse-mouth or from the abortion workers in abortion clinics describing the bloody mass of fetal body parts in the sink and having to count and piece them together as if it's an everyday affair? You even see that in the CMP-PPH videos.

If very late term abortion was done due to mother's health, you don't make an appointment for a medically risky very late term abortion in the abortion shop. You don't wait a few days to casually walk into a facility that is not equipped for medical complication or staffed with clinical specialists when life-threatening emergency occurs, especially the high risk of very late term abortion in conjunction with life-threatening health problem of the mother. You go to the hospital involving life-threatening medical issues. You don't go to a human chop shop for emergency medical care.

Whether you detached the unborn from the uterus painlessly or painfully, in pieces or in whole, it doesn't matter. All the same, the result is the death of an innocent human being killed by the hands of the abortionist who is hired to do the murderous job by the mother.
 
Mine didnt substantially differ from the 'results' of your explanation, lol.

I see you dont recognize it.

So, you agree with me that using the lack of pain awareness as a pro-abortion debate point for justifying abortion is a logical fallacy, right? Good.
 
Yes that's what I wrote.

Human beings have consciousness for one thing. Compassion, evil, love, hope, determination, the beginnings of critical thinking, manipulating their environment, etc etc etc etc. But here's a good Reader's Digest version:
So, you agree quoting legal definition is futile.

Consciousness exists in other animals also. It's simply a neurophysiological event that could only exist if the zygote/embryo/fetus is allowed to develop. Having consciousness doesn't transform my dog into a human being or a human person, does it? Terminating the life of your own unborn child and destroying its hope for life is not love, is it? In fact, many would call such act evil. An infant or a 6 year old child is incapable of critical thinking. That doesn't give you the justification to kill them with impunity, does it?
 
Animals are sentient beings also. So, what's your point? Personhood is a phantom boogeymen propped up to disguise as something it is not. You can't make substance out of a shadow, can you?

The particular DNA combination is what makes you what you are and who you are. It may be unimportant to you so as to justify your abortion cause, but to forensic scientists, it's what differentiates between human tissues from tissues of other life form. It's also what differentiates you from all other people on this planet; thereby identifying you in case you got murdered and your body is reduced to bits and pieces. So, apparent you are wrong on that point like any other proabortion points.

About abortion as just cause, you say? Yeah, Susan Smith also believed that drowning her two sons in the lake is a just cause to pursue her new life with a rich man without the baggage.


should we be up and arms over the meat industry and pest exterminators as well?

person hood is what separates us from other animals its what makes slavery wrong but owning livestock ok

it is what and who i am as a thinking being

dont mind a woman getting an abortion to be free of baggage do mind if your drowning some one who has been born
 
I was hoping for something more than a simple minded answer.

I can not find anything that would make it so beyond the wishes of the woman making that life possible.

Stupid questions make very poor arguments.
Sexual reproduction is not complicated. A sexually mature male and female get into act of copulation, sperm meets egg, half set of human chromosomes from paternal source combines with the other half set of human chromosomes from maternal source. Human chromosome number is fully restored. Voila! a new unique human being is procreated into existence.

My question is very simple and down-to-earth. I see it confounded you right on the spot.
 
should we be up and arms over the meat industry and pest exterminators as well?

person hood is what separates us from other animals its what makes slavery wrong but owning livestock ok

it is what and who i am as a thinking being

dont mind a woman getting an abortion to be free of baggage do mind if your drowning some one who has been born
No, we shouldn't be up and arms over the meat industry and pest exterminators as well unless they violates the regulations of their respective governing federal agencies. But, what does this gotta do with human affair of abortion?

Like I said, personhood is a boogeyman conceived out of the wild imagination of proabortion pioneers. But, it sure can't beat the real physical conception of a new human being as tested and handled in the fertility clinics and verified by the science of human embryology.

My dog can think as well. So, what's your point other than tap dancing?
 
No, we shouldn't be up and arms over the meat industry and pest exterminators as well unless they violates the regulations of their respective governing federal agencies. But, what does this gotta do with human affair of abortion?

Like I said, personhood is a boogeyman conceived out of the wild imagination of proabortion pioneers. But, it sure can't beat the real physical conception of a new human being as tested and handled in the fertility clinics and verified by the science of human embryology.

My dog can think as well. So, what's your point other than tap dancing?

you don't mind the mass murder of animals and you keep a slave

unless animals are not the same as people

in which case the death of a human may be justifiable if it is not a person

if a fetus has not become person yet then it can be killed with the consent of it smother justly

species dose not matter only the traits a living thing has
 
you don't mind the mass murder of animals and you keep a slave

unless animals are not the same as people

in which case the death of a human may be justifiable if it is not a person

if a fetus has not become person yet then it can be killed with the consent of it smother justly

species dose not matter only the traits a living thing has
By mass murder of animals you mean killing them for foods, such as fish, chicken, pork and beef? Unless it's done inhumanely, of course not. We are talking about the lives of human beings here. Have you ever seen in court forensic scientists testifying about a murder case on the mass murder of domestic animals? Of course not, They are not the same as people. Interesting tap dancing you have here!

A person is just another word for a human being. Nothing magical that you can use it to justify killing of another human being. How many criteria besides the defeated fetal pain awareness are you people going to tap dancing them into existence?
 
Yes, at least make an attempt to post rational and thread relevant material.
You mean like consciousness and mass murder of animals that kind of thread relevant material? I agree, you should remind them to post thread relevant material instead of leading us nowhere on a wild goose chase with their tap dancing maneuver?
 
You mean like consciousness and mass murder of animals that kind of thread relevant material? I agree, you should remind them to post thread relevant material instead of leading us nowhere on a wild goose chase with their tap dancing maneuver?
I was not replying to "them" so you you have anything intelligent and relevant?
 
By mass murder of animals you mean killing them for foods, such as fish, chicken, pork and beef? Unless it's done inhumanely, of course not. We are talking about the lives of human beings here. Have you ever seen in court forensic scientists testifying about a murder case on the mass murder of domestic animals? Of course not, They are not the same as people. Interesting tap dancing you have here!

A person is just another word for a human being. Nothing magical that you can use it to justify killing of another human being. How many criteria besides the defeated fetal pain awareness are you people going to tap dancing them into existence?

ok so animal life can be killed

people cant be

but your dna is not magical either you don't have mind when your conceived you don't ave a mind that surpasses some of are food when your unborn

people are not the same as homo sapiens theoretically a person dosent have to be human aliens, ai, modified organisms, even other animals that exist today would all deserve rights based on there level of sentience not there genetic resemblance towards are species

likewise human dna dose not make a person the brain dead are no longer people a fetus may have the dna to build a person but is not 1 yet

we kill things that feel pain so i dont see how fetal pain is a problem for abortion at most you have to attempt to numb the fetus or kill it suddenly then

no tap dancing just some reasoning you have any actual criticism of it or just insults that let you blow it off?
 
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