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The Pinch - Wake Up, America

smeals said:
I think so too, celticwar. I don't know why people make the argument that they don't experience any pain, when they don't really know for sure. Plus, even if they can't experience pain, they still might be having some sort of horrific experience we can't really understand from the outside. I already put up four links that suggest that they really do experience pain. He didn't say anything back yet.
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Good afternoon smeals - I see you're new to DP so I'd like to welcome you and encourage you to share your opinions whenever and on whatever topic you choose.

I'd also just advise you that in the bottom right hand corner of each post you see here, there's a label for " Reply with Quote. If you click on that label when you want to respond to someone about something they posted, their quote will appear in your response and they will be notified that they have received a comment in response to their post and they will be able to respond back to you in kind.

Take care and enjoy your time here on DP.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Sounds like a great idea.

Unfortunately, some of the people who are the most strident anti-choice are also people who are the most strident anti-artificial contraception.

No please those people.
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Exactly.

And many of those are also for terminating social services that help support the well being/welfare of children who have no political voice and can't fend for themselves. It's their way of punishing women for having sex. Tsk, tsk, tsk, - sorry - irresponsible sex. The kind of sex that obviously the devil made them engage in. The weak minded women, ya know. Of course they don't consider all of the women who take birth control, which failed and ultimately an unwanted pregnancy came into being. Tough bananas for these women, too. They screwed and they MUST give birth regardless of what their life circumstances are.

Oddly enough these puritan minded people believe that men aren't morally or legally obligated to reproduce. BUT, they deeply believe women are. You know, it's all because they have a uterus (not a penis).
 
prometeus said:
Right...

Indeed a baseless one.

People will not dignify stupid assumptions.

Because you have nothing.
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How is it baseless? I don't think my intuition is baseless... I think most that support abortion don't have their stance based on whether the fetus feels pain or not.

Is yours?
 
celticwar17 said:
How is it baseless? I don't think my intuition is baseless... I think most that support abortion don't have their stance based on whether the fetus feels pain or not.

Is yours?
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perhaps that is because they are well-enough educated on biology and the issue to know that it is "not an issue"....that more than 90% of all abortions take place before the unborn are aware or can feel pain and that the much less common late term abortions that are medically necessary use either anesthetic injection or a lethal injection that also prevents pain.
 
Lursa said:
perhaps that is because they are well-enough educated on biology and the issue to know that it is "not an issue"....that more than 90% of all abortions take place before the unborn are aware or can feel pain and that the much less common late term abortions that are medically necessary use either anesthetic injection or a lethal injection that also prevents pain.
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This is just a cop out...
It has nothing to do whether you are educated on biology... you are not told whether a fetus or any animal can feel pain or not in grade school biology. I guess all you can know from that is that pain originates in nerve receptors, and then you have to ask yourself at what point do those pain receptors develop in the womb. You would not know this unless you directly seek the answer... if the assumption is that it is "not an issue" I don't think many directly sought out the answer.

regardless of all of that.... is pain a factor or not? NO ONE is directly answering...
 
celticwar17 said:
This is just a cop out...
It has nothing to do whether you are educated on biology... you are not told whether a fetus or any animal can feel pain or not in grade school biology. I guess all you can know from that is that pain originates in nerve receptors, and then you have to ask yourself at what point do those pain receptors develop in the womb. You would not know this unless you directly seek the answer... if the assumption is that it is "not an issue" I don't think many directly sought out the answer.

regardless of all of that.... is pain a factor or not? NO ONE is directly answering...
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I also said 'educated on the ISSUE.' Anyone that feels strongly and wants to form a rational opinion should at least learn about the issue.

And this is very public information if anyone makes any effort to find it and their mind is open enough to understand it.

Lursa said:
perhaps that is because they are well-enough educated on biology and the issue to know that it is "not an issue"....that more than 90% of all abortions take place before the unborn are aware or can feel pain and that the much less common late term abortions that are medically necessary use either anesthetic injection or a lethal injection that also prevents pain.
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Not to mention many medical links available on when the unborn do start to develop nervous systems and start to feel pain.

And I thought I answered it...for anyone that is actually informed on the issue, it is not a factor because there's no pain.
 
Lursa said:
I also said 'educated on the ISSUE.' Anyone that feels strongly and wants to form a rational opinion should at least learn about the issue.

And this is very public information if anyone makes any effort to find it and their mind is open enough to understand it.



Not to mention many medical links available on when the unborn do start to develop nervous systems and start to feel pain.

And I thought I answered it...for anyone that is actually informed on the issue, it is not a factor because there's no pain.
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You still avoid answering the question...

let's look at hypothetical then(because what you understand about a developing fetus could always be wrong, there could always be new information or your own lack of understanding) ... what if the fetus DID experience pain? Would it change your position?

The answer holds value, because what's the point of debating this topic if it does not achieve a goal, because it's post keeps moving backwards...
 
celticwar17 said:
You still avoid answering the question...

let's look at hypothetical then(because what you understand about a developing fetus could always be wrong, there could always be new information or your own lack of understanding) ... what if the fetus DID experience pain? Would it change your position?

The answer holds value, because what's the point of debating this topic if it does not achieve a goal, because it's post keeps moving backwards...
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Answer: No, because if the unborn could feel pain, then the medical community could prevent it during the procedure, just like they do now as needed. Just like for pretty much every medical procedure...anesthesia can be administered.

Why would the ability to feel pain be a criteria for supporting/not abortion if it could be prevented? Does that criteria have some other relevance that I'm not aware of?
 
Lursa said:
Answer: No, because if the unborn could feel pain, then the medical community could prevent it during the procedure, just like they do now as needed. Just like for pretty much every medical procedure...anesthesia can be administered.

Why would the ability to feel pain be a criteria for supporting/not abortion if it could be prevented? Does that criteria have some other relevance that I'm not aware of?
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Okay, thanks for answering... was it that hard for all that dancing about ? xD

This makes the issue null to debate regardless, because whether the fetus experiences pain or not, it makes no difference to you. I much rather debate where people think it would make a difference.
 
smeals said:
Medscape: Medscape Access
Unborn babies can feel pain during abortion
http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/
Expert Told Congress Unborn Babies Can Feel Pain Starting at 8 Weeks | LifeNews.com

There is some research here that suggests that they actually can feel pain. Also, it isn't just about pain, necessarily. You don't really know exactly what they are experiencing when they are terminated. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution when we don't really know?
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While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

JAMA Network | JAMA | Fetal Pain:  A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence
 
celticwar17 said:
Okay, thanks for answering... was it that hard for all that dancing about ? xD

This makes the issue null to debate regardless, because whether the fetus experiences pain or not, it makes no difference to you. I much rather debate where people think it would make a difference.
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25 years ago, or so, a baby born 8 weeks premature was on the margin of survival. Much earlier than that, and survival was almost out of the question. Today, births at 23-28 weeks have a substantially improved chance of survival.

So, has medical science made babies more human at this stage of development, and less like a lump of tissue?

It's an interesting question...
 
celticwar17 said:
Okay, thanks for answering... was it that hard for all that dancing about ? xD

This makes the issue null to debate regardless, because whether the fetus experiences pain or not, it makes no difference to you. I much rather debate where people think it would make a difference.
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Sorry and I'm sorry if I seemed rude.

But you still dont understand my position: there is no reason for the unborn to feel pain...doctors can and do and would prevent it...so there is no basis (for me) for objecting to abortion on that criteria. Abortions do not cause pain to the unborn, so it's not a factor. (I see no reason for a hypothetical that isnt based in reality....Drs would prevent pain)


I do appreciate that you were trying to explore something that I hadnt really seen people focus on before....whether or not their positions on abortion would change based on if the unborn felt pain during the abortion.
 
celticwar17 said:
Okay, thanks for answering... was it that hard for all that dancing about ? xD

This makes the issue null to debate regardless, because whether the fetus experiences pain or not, it makes no difference to you. I much rather debate where people think it would make a difference.
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You don't want to debate someone who believes it makes a difference. You want to debate someone who believes as you do. And that's not a debate, but a rally to gather support from those who believe as you do.

Here's what you know. Well over 90 percent of all abortions occur 12 weeks and under of those over 60% are 10 weeks and under. A 10 week old is about the size of a kidney bean. All other abortions are performed out of NECESSITY. Period.

We're not talking about rocket science here. We're talking about biological development.

There is no medical/scientific evidence that 12 week and under fetuses have brain development and the neural ability to feel pain. There's been eons of events where embryos to fetuses have been dissected every developmental stage possible. The biological structures just aren't there.

Neither is there any evidence that such stages of development are self-aware. Or sentient life forms.

Your question is asked to evoke emotional responses by apparently people who don't buy into even the possibility that such stage feel pain. So your question is actually moot. It's only hypothetical and anybody who responds is either lacking in fundamental knowledge regarding biology or they are blinded by some form of dogma.
 
Removable Mind said:
You don't want to debate someone who believes it makes a difference. You want to debate someone who believes as you do. And that's not a debate, but a rally to gather support from those who believe as you do.

Here's what you know. Well over 90 percent of all abortions occur 12 weeks and under of those over 60% are 10 weeks and under. A 10 week old is about the size of a kidney bean. All other abortions are performed out of NECESSITY. Period.

We're not talking about rocket science here. We're talking about biological development.

There is no medical/scientific evidence that 12 week and under fetuses have brain development and the neural ability to feel pain. There's been eons of events where embryos to fetuses have been dissected every developmental stage possible. The biological structures just aren't there.

Neither is there any evidence that such stages of development are self-aware. Or sentient life forms.

Your question is asked to evoke emotional responses by apparently people who don't buy into even the possibility that such stage feel pain. So your question is actually moot. It's only hypothetical and anybody who responds is either lacking in fundamental knowledge regarding biology or they are blinded by some form of dogma.
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I am happy to debate someone who does not believe as I do... and believe me I am the last person to try to evoke an emotional response.

I'm afraid the topic of abortion goes much deeper than abortion itself, and it's not just abortion I can have issues with, it's the mentality that comes with it, it's the lack of responsibility, the dehumanization, the buisness...... I am not even sure if I am pro-life or pro-choice myself... it's a complicated issue for me...I often debate against those who are pro-choice though because I don't think a lot of times they get adequate responses and a lot of times they tend to be ***holes...
 
sangha said:
No, it holds no value because the fetus' that are aborted feel no pain.
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You contradicted my question...the question defines that fetus does feel pain...it's an assumption, an intellectual exercise.
 
celticwar17 said:
I am happy to debate someone who does not believe as I do... and believe me I am the last person to try to evoke an emotional response.

I'm afraid the topic of abortion goes much deeper than abortion itself, and it's not just abortion I can have issues with, it's the mentality that comes with it, it's the lack of responsibility, the dehumanization, the buisness...... I am not even sure if I am pro-life or pro-choice myself... it's a complicated issue for me...I often debate against those who are pro-choice though because I don't think a lot of times they get adequate responses and a lot of times they tend to be ***holes...
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Do you not also consider the dehumanization of women that would take place if the govt decided to take their choices, those they make for the betterment of their own lives and those of their families, current and future, out of their hands in the belief that the govt knew "best" for women?

Do you not consider that to place the (proposed) rights of the unborn would require placing some or all of a woman's rights as subordinate to the unborn, making them unequal and reducing women back to 2nd class citizens again? The born and unborn cannot be treated equally, legally or practically, so one must be secondary, be less.

IMO that certainly is the unborn.
 
clownboy said:
As long as abortion mills exist there will be tragic incidents like this. If not this generation then the next or the next. It will always be a contested issue and there will always be someone who takes it beyond the pale.

The issue will not be solved by changing the language.



No one is being punished by not having the ability to kill the unborn. You are on the wrong side of the problem when you characterize these folks as simply "those who have made mistakes". Perhaps a generation of women should learn not to open their legs unless they are willing and in the right place to get pregnant. A generation of men should learn not to horn around until they are ready and willing to be fathers.

For genuine, not my fault situations there have always been exceptions. We don't need abortion mills for that. We don't need the same org that kills unborn teaching our kids to go ahead and have sex (as long as you're protected) - now THAT is a mistake.
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What exactly is an "abortion mill". Please explain. I also wonder why you think young people need to be told to have sex or that telling them not to has any effect?
As far as this incident being a side effect of legal abortions, we could have 10 times the number of attacks on clinics and it would still be far less harmful to human lives than making abortions illegal. Countries that do not have legal safe abortion have 1000's of maimed or dead women from illegal abortionists.
 
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Lursa said:
Of course they know for sure. Medical science knows the range where the developing unborn can start to feel pain. More than 90% of all abortions take place early in pregnancies before they do. And they develop awareness even later so no, they are not aware and not in pain.

And for the much less common, medically necessary abortions, anesthesis is administered by injection, or just a lethal injection is used.

In case you didnt notice, one of your links requires a subscription, 2 discuss fetuses feeling pain around 20 weeks which is waaaayyy after most abortions take place (as I just wrote) and the last one is an unsubstantiated opinion in a biased pro-life magazine.
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Well, as long as "most" of them don't feel pain, that should be good enough.
 
JC Callender said:
Well, as long as "most" of them don't feel pain, that should be good enough.
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No you seem to have misread, I clearly outlined 2 scenarios and in neither do the unborn feel pain.

Did you miss the sentence about the less common late term abortions where anesthesia is used?
 
Lursa said:
No you seem to have misread, I clearly outlined 2 scenarios and in neither do the unborn feel pain.

Did you miss the sentence about the less common late term abortions where anesthesia is used?
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Does it bother you that a being that can feel pain enough to have to be anesthetized is being aborted?
 
celticwar17 said:
You contradicted my question...the question defines that fetus does feel pain...it's an assumption, an intellectual exercise.
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No, your question doesn't define that fetus feel pain because reality dictates that they don't.

So now that we clarified the fact that these aborted fetus' can't feel pain, has your position on abortion changed?

Thought not. I knew from the start that pain was not the issue for you - just an emotional ploy
 
JC Callender said:
Does it bother you that a being that can feel pain enough to have to be anesthetized is being aborted?
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If you are so concerned about fetal pain, why are you not concerned about the pain of being squeezed through the cervix and down the birth canal? That's gotta hurt!
 
celticwar17 said:
How is it baseless?
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Because there is nothing factual that you can offer to support it.

I don't think my intuition is baseless...
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None the less it is.

I think most that support abortion don't have their stance based on whether the fetus feels pain or not.
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And you have what to offer for that?
 
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