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How would you solve the abortion issue?

You reiterated the point about a legislative solution, so I tried to clarify it further for you.

I didn't reiterate anything - I suggested another poster complain to the author of the OP if you don't like a thread asking for legislative solutions. I suggested you do the same. I don't need any clarification since I'm not the one calling for legislative solutions. Clearly, you're the one who needs clarification and I'd suggest you respond to the author of the OP to find out what he's looking for.
 
It doesnt matter. The reasons for the pregnancy dont matter. The reasons for the choice to have an abortion dont matter. A woman should be able to...and can...have an abortion for any reason she wants. Because all the discussions in the world wont affect those things for other people.

I usually point out that most people are using BC when they have sex because I get tired of some people constantly harping on women being so irresponsible and "deserve' the consequences they get....in other words, a kid. The kid is their punishment for being irresponsible :doh

Newflash! Nobody like people who act irresponsibly, esp. when we have to pay for the results of that irresponsibly. I dont like paying for welfare, etc either. But in those discussions I dont bother whining about how irresponsible people on welfare are...mostly because many of them are not on welfare because of irresponsible decisions.

Newsflash!! The OP is about solutions to the abortion problem. I appreciate you have none, at least none you've shared with the posters in this thread. I'm not surprised since you seem to believe women are helpless in a sea of attacking sperm.
 
I didn't reiterate anything - I suggested another poster complain to the author of the OP if you don't like a thread asking for legislative solutions. I suggested you do the same. I don't need any clarification since I'm not the one calling for legislative solutions. Clearly, you're the one who needs clarification and I'd suggest you respond to the author of the OP to find out what he's looking for.

Kind of an empty post. Thanks for the advice! :roll: Easier than debate of course.
 
Newsflash!! The OP is about solutions to the abortion problem. I appreciate you have none, at least none you've shared with the posters in this thread. I'm not surprised since you seem to believe women are helpless in a sea of attacking sperm.

Please post where I ever implied women are helpless regarding what...sex? Their reproduction? No more so than when men's condoms fail. Or when men fail to use one. Or when men get drunk or....seems both are equally helpless?

And I did post my opinion on the solution: that we have one so none is needed.
 
Kind of an empty post. Thanks for the advice! :roll: Easier than debate of course.

Spoken like an expert.

Here's the OP, since you clearly didn't read it and haven't yet offered anything relevant to the subject:

"Calling people murderers and is all well and good, but how would you solve the issue? Pretend that you have the ability to enact law."


Here's your chance to provide something relevant - I won't hold my breath.
 
Funny - I'm one of the few posters in this thread who's actually responded to the question raised in the OP, even though it's simply a bait thread. You, on the other hand, like the rest of the pro-abortion clique and as usual, simply come into these threads to attack and criticize anyone who isn't carrying the pro-abortion water. You're like tag-team wrestlers. It's why I asked one of your clique-ites if you guys coordinate these threads and your responses.

In case you didn't know it, cause and effect is simple science and nature. I appreciate that you may think pregnancy is like the flu and easily caught or you think innocent women get pregnant through immaculate conception on an epidemic basis. If you take the OP seriously, which is probably a big mistake, the simple fact remains that the only way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies. As stated, you can't legislate in that area even if some wanted to. The alternative is to reduce unwanted pregnancies. I gave my response to that "issue", suggesting women have more respect for themselves and their individual needs and consider the consequences of not doing so. Your alternative is to throw your hands in the air, and rant about how women are going to have sex and there's nothing to be done about it.

Good lecture!

And your judgements on women's behavior are still evident and what some of us found most reflective of a general attitude in people disapproving of women having choice. (Note that is carefully worded).

Blaming men and women (yes, bc is a 2 way street) for their sex habits is not a solution to abortion. So comments on that are judgemental self-indulgence, IMO.
 
Spoken like an expert.

Here's the OP, since you clearly didn't read it and haven't yet offered anything relevant to the subject:

"Calling people murderers and is all well and good, but how would you solve the issue? Pretend that you have the ability to enact law."


Here's your chance to provide something relevant - I won't hold my breath.

What is the issue? Preventing murder? The laws are already enacted. I dont have a solution but I imagine I'd be up for a Nobel Peace Prize if I did.

IMO for a serious look at it, you have to try and achieve that balance where more restrictions on people that may violate their rights counters the ability to keep them safe. I prefer erring on the side of more freedom and people being responsible for taking care of themselves (lock doors, make home secure, be more aware, go out in public in groups, carry a weapon, get training in self-defense, dont start fights, etc.) rather than reducing everyone's rights further.

"Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."
 
I am not a "pro-life advocate," but I still just can't grasp that. Maybe it would help if you were not so vague and general. You claim the Supreme Court's related cases pre-dating Roe v. Wade ALL validate that something here or there in the Constitution guarantees a right to control reproductive decisions, and that that right may encompass the decision to have an abortion. Please name those cases specifically, and tell us exactly what the Court said. That should be easy enough for anyone who understands constitutional law as well as you claim to.

Let's do baby steps, shall we?

My claim isn't just a claim, it's reality. Women have Constitutional rights, which include, but aren't limited to "EQUAL PROTECTION under the law, CANNOT BE DENIED LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW, and THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ALL OF WHICH are enjoyed EQUALLY WITH MEN".

Do your agree or disagree with the above.
 
Let's do baby steps, shall we?

My claim isn't just a claim, it's reality. Women have Constitutional rights, which include, but aren't limited to "EQUAL PROTECTION under the law, CANNOT BE DENIED LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW, and THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ALL OF WHICH are enjoyed EQUALLY WITH MEN".

Do your agree or disagree with the above.

Irrelevant - nothing you just said has anything to do with abortion... save for arguably the due process clause of the 5th Amendment which refers back to the unalienable human right to life listed in our Declaration of Independence.
 
Good lecture!

And your judgements on women's behavior are still evident and what some of us found most reflective of a general attitude in people disapproving of women having choice. (Note that is carefully worded).

Blaming men and women (yes, bc is a 2 way street) for their sex habits is not a solution to abortion. So comments on that are judgemental self-indulgence, IMO.

I see you consider it judgmental to hold someone accountable for their own actions. I'm not surprised. The only people self-indulgent are those who want all the freedoms and equality and none of the consequences.
 
I see you consider it judgmental to hold someone accountable for their own actions. I'm not surprised. The only people self-indulgent are those who want all the freedoms and equality and none of the consequences.

In cases where they have more than one responsible (accountable) action? Sure. It's your judgement that abortion is not a responsible action, which it certainly is. And it carries its own potential consequences.
 
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Let's do baby steps, shall we?

My claim isn't just a claim, it's reality. Women have Constitutional rights, which include, but aren't limited to "EQUAL PROTECTION under the law, CANNOT BE DENIED LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW, and THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ALL OF WHICH are enjoyed EQUALLY WITH MEN".

Do your agree or disagree with the above.

Your personal opinions about abortion are no more than that--opinions. You pretend to understand the constitutional law it involves, but when challenged to state that law specifically, you've got nothing but more baloney. You are posturing as a chess player without even knowing how the pieces move.

Equal protection is not relevant--Roe v. Wade was decided on the basis of that other clause in the Fourteenth Amendment, the Due Process Clause. Nor does an implied constitutional right to privacy, which the majority in Roe first claimed was founded in the Due Process Clause's concept of liberty, and then claimed, without a word of explanation, included a right to abortion, have anything to do with the Equal Protection Clause. All you can do is toss around phrases you barely understand, and hope if you throw out enough of them, you may fool someone.
 
Your personal opinions about abortion are no more than that--opinions.

~~SNIP~~~

You are so dead wrong about several things, but most notably is the RIGHT TO PRIVACY. Roe v Wade wasn't the S.C.'s first rodeo regarding the RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

In fact you're so predictable I KNEW YOU WOULD come back with, "There's no explicit, printed, or implied RIGHT TO PRIVACY in the Constitution." You'd be wrong. The Constitution can't exist for its intended purpose without "The right to privacy". This has been established over the past eight plus decades.


But there are numerous provisions in the Constitution, which forbid government from intervening in women's rights such as "EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW", CAN'T BE DENIED LIFE, "LIBERTY", and "PROPERTY" WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW. And last, but not least, THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY. All of the aforementioned rights are not restricted or less equal to those Constitutional rights enjoyed by men.

U.S. Supreme Court "Right to Privacy" Cases

Meyer v Nebraska (1923)

Griswold v Connecticut (1965) - Note: Estelle Griswold, of the Planned Parenthood League, whose lawsuit led to the invalidation of a state law banning contraceptives.

Stanley v Georgia (1969)

Ravin v State (1975)

Kelley v Johnson (1976)

Moore v East Cleveland (1977)

Cruzan v. Missouri Dep't. of Health (1990)

Lawrence v Texas (2003)

=========================================================================================

Bill of Rights (and 14th Amendment) Provisions Relating to the Right of Privacy

Amendment I

(Privacy of Beliefs)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment III

(Privacy of the Home)

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

(Privacy of the Person and Possessions)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment IX

(More General Protection for Privacy?)

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Liberty Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment

No State shall... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.


Definitions of Liberty and Right to Privacy

1) Liberty: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges.

2) Right to Privacy: freedom from unauthorized intrusion


NOTHING ABOVE RIGHTS PERTAINS TO THE YET TO BE BORN. THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED DIRECTLY.

What does all of the above mean in terms of "Women's Constitutional Right to Have an Abortion?":

Women and their Medical Providers' relationships are protected by the Constitution via the Fourteen Amendment. Among the provisions within the 14th Amendment is the Right to Privacy (see definition above), which is imperative for the Fourteen Amendment to be valid. Women who go to Medical Providers can seek medical tests, diagnosis, treatments, and "legal medical procedures".

Additionally, the government cannot deny women's right to LIBERTY without due process of law. In other words, when women break no laws, they can't be denied the right to liberty (see definition above). But it also includes the right to seek medical services, which are....are...are...PRIVATE!


The related information linked between women and their medical providers is not privy to the public, religions, or government EXCEPT that the government can collect NON-PERSONAL DATA that evolves from women's relationships with their medical providers. And government can publish such data. (I'm personally against government having this power.)

In other words, women can't be discriminated against because they don't have a penis. Or, if you prefer, they can't be discriminated against for "having a uterus". There is no Constitutional provision that says MEN ARE LEGALLY OR MORALLY OBLIGATED TO REPRODUCE. And NEITHER ARE WOMEN!

Nowhere in the Constitution forbids a woman from having an abortion.
 
Your personal opinions about abortion are no more than that--opinions. You pretend to understand the constitutional law it involves, but when challenged to state that law specifically, you've got nothing but more baloney. You are posturing as a chess player without even knowing how the pieces move.

Equal protection is not relevant--Roe v. Wade was decided on the basis of that other clause in the Fourteenth Amendment, the Due Process Clause. Nor does an implied constitutional right to privacy, which the majority in Roe first claimed was founded in the Due Process Clause's concept of liberty, and then claimed, without a word of explanation, included a right to abortion, have anything to do with the Equal Protection Clause. All you can do is toss around phrases you barely understand, and hope if you throw out enough of them, you may fool someone.

Yeah, and I guess SCOTUS doesnt understand Constitutional law either :roll: There is indeed legitimate Constitutional basis for legalized abortion and it's only *your opinion* that SCOTUS got it wrong.

I've never seen any evidence that you actually understand all the stuff you copy and paste here re: the law. You basicially regurgitate text book stuff. You never manage to explain it in your own words, altho it's been asked of you more than once.
 
Roe v Wade wasn't the S.C.'s first rodeo regarding the RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

I never even implied that it was, so you are arguing with yourself.

I KNEW YOU WOULD come back with, "There's no explicit, printed, or implied RIGHT TO PRIVACY in the Constitution."

Again, I never even implied that. You can't even begin to refute any of my arguments, so you cook up doubtful claims, falsely attribute them to me, and then present evidence against your own concoctions.

Of course there is no explicit right to privacy in the Constitution, as the Court plainly acknowledged in Roe: "The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy." 410 U.S. 113, 152 (1973). But the very next sentence notes that "In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U. S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution." It is fair to note that more than one Supreme Court justice has doubted that any such right exists.

The line of decisions mentioned in Roe includes some of the cases in the laundry list your Wikilaw "research" turned up. You might have included Skinner v. Oklahoma, a 1942 decision about a state law that required habitual criminals to be sterilized. Skinner extended the privacy right to include decisions about procreation, and in that sense it anticipated Griswold and Roe. You might also have included Pierce v. Society of Sisters, a 1925 Supreme Court decision that held decisions about rearing and educating children were part of an implied constitutional right to privacy.

The Roe decision also discusses the various parts of the Constitution the Court had identified as the source of this implied right, and the cases in which each part was identified. It also said that "these decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed 'fundamental' or 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,' Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U. S. 319, 325 (1937), are included in this guarantee of personal privacy." The Roe majority then proceeded, without ever bothering to apply the standard the Court has developed to determine whether a right is fundamental, to declare that abortion was a fundamental right.

But as Justice Scalia observed in Lawrence v. Texas, the Court has dropped the claim it made in Roe that abortion is a fundamental right. "We have since rejected Roe's holding that regulations of abortion must be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest, see Planned Parenthood v. Casey . . . and thus, by logical implication, Roe's holding that the right to abort an unborn child is a 'fundamental right.' See 505 U.S., at 843-912 (joint opinion of O'CONNOR, KENNEDY, and SOUTER, JJ.) (not once describing abortion as a 'fundamental right' or a 'fundamental liberty interest')." 539 U.S. 554, 595 (2003) (Scalia, J., dissenting)

According to what the Court said in Roe, then, apparently the right to abortion, not being fundamental, is not "included in this guarantee of personal privacy." Or should only the parts of Roe you happen to like apply?

Additionally, the government cannot deny women's right to LIBERTY without due process of law. In other words, when women break no laws, they can't be denied the right to liberty

The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies to persons without regard to their sex. To understand what the "liberty" in that clause was intended to include, read Justice Thomas' brilliant discussion of that subject in his dissenting opinion in Obergefell. He traces the historical meaning of that concept all the way back to Magna Charta, where the concept of due process in our law has its roots.

Read that history, as Justice Thomas details it, and it will become very clear the Fourteenth Amendment Due Process Clause was never meant to protect a right to abortion, to homosexual marriage, or to any other "right du jour" a handful of lawyers on the Supreme Court felt like cooking up that year. The "liberty" meant the same in 1868 as it had in 1791, and the same as it always had meant before that: Freedom from being physically restrained by agents of government without some legitimate reason and fair opportunity to challenge that reason in a hearing.

Nowhere in the Constitution forbids a woman from having an abortion.

So what? Nowhere does the Constitution forbid anyone to commit murder, either, but that doesn't mean there is a constitutional right to murder that states violate by making laws against it.
 
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So what? Nowhere does the Constitution forbid anyone to commit murder, either, but that doesn't mean there is a constitutional right to murder that states violate by making laws against it.

Because murder violates other peoples' rights.

Abortion doesnt violate any one else's rights and does no harm to society that I've ever seen demonstrated. Quite the opposite really and maybe the states realize that.
 
it's only *your opinion* that SCOTUS got it wrong.

Nope. The Constitution is written in plain English and readily available online for anyone to read. There is no excuse for not knowing the fact that SCOTUS got it wrong.
 
Nope. The Constitution is written in plain English and readily available online for anyone to read. There is no excuse for not knowing the fact that SCOTUS got it wrong.

Except that it still stands, and is not being challenged on abortion...at all. And most Americans agree with it.

Funny how you have your own, singularly flexible perception of so many things...luckily not shared by SCOTUS or most Americans.
 
Yeah, and I guess SCOTUS doesnt understand Constitutional law either :roll: There is indeed legitimate Constitutional basis for legalized abortion and it's only *your opinion* that SCOTUS got it wrong.

Hardly just mine. As hundreds of academic articles and books have discussed for four decades now, the Supreme Court did not provide one shred of legal reasoning in Roe to support its claim of a constitutional right to abortion. And it has not provided any in its abortion decisions since Roe, either. Even Justice Ginsburg wrote a law review article that was critical of Roe, and so have many constitutional scholars who personally favor abortion. The decision is one of the Supreme Court's all-time stinkers, right down there with Dred Scott. The Court itself finds it embarrassing, which is why it backed away from it pretty sharply in Casey in 1992.

I've never seen any evidence that you actually understand all the stuff you copy and paste here re: the law. You basicially regurgitate text book stuff. You never manage to explain it in your own words, altho it's been asked of you more than once.

No? Well, you won't see any from me. Whether you think I understand what I write here about constitutional law, think I copy-and-paste it, or what you want me to do, etc. does not interest me. I'm confident that many other people who have read my posts on these forums on issues of constitutional law know that I don't need to plagiarize. They know that if I am using someone else's words, I quote them and cite the quotation, and that wherever I don't do that, it is because I am speaking from my own knowledge.
 
I never even implied that it was, so you are arguing with yourself.




So what? Nowhere does the Constitution forbid anyone to commit murder, either, but that doesn't mean there is a constitutional right to murder that states violate by making laws against it.

The Constitution forbids the GOVERNMENT from UNJUSTLY TAKING A LIFE! Unjustly killing is murder. Remember the Due Process Clause? Yes, we've discovered it ain't perfect, people fall through the cracks. But laws are simply outlines of consequences for behaviors that violate others. Rights are guidelines. We can't have monitors for every individual who lives in our nation. Who would monitor the monitors?

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But at least we have a judicial system that its history, which is made each and everyday, is available for public viewing and vital for perpetuating the system. Its ongoing documentation in every jurisdiction is the only thing that gives it any credibility. There is a grander reality here. Despite these adversarial argument by SOME Justices that you offered - the Right to Privacy is a NECESSITY in order for the Constitution to be functional and possess any meaning and value at all in our society. Not being denied "life, liberty, and property applies to men and women equally for more reaching than you've made claim. Equal protection under the law is vital - especially when it comes to abortion issues. Men aren't scrutinized or held to the same standards women with regards to reproduction. But because of equal protection women aren't anymore obligated to reproduce than men are.

You can disagree with me till the cows come home. But....

Government should NEVER possess the right to tell a woman, or a man, how many children that they should have or not have...period. If you don't believe that or that the Constitution doesn't give people that control then the Constitution is worthless.

But now...today

Women's rights to manage their own reproductive roles seems to be moving along. And of course some extremists have this obsessive compulsive need to control other people's lives based on their personal belief. Surprise , surprise.
 
Hardly just mine. As hundreds of academic articles and books have discussed for four decades now, the Supreme Court did not provide one shred of legal reasoning in Roe to support its claim of a constitutional right to abortion. And it has not provided any in its abortion decisions since Roe, either. Even Justice Ginsburg wrote a law review article that was critical of Roe, and so have many constitutional scholars who personally favor abortion. The decision is one of the Supreme Court's all-time stinkers, right down there with Dred Scott. The Court itself finds it embarrassing, which is why it backed away from it pretty sharply in Casey in 1992.



No? Well, you won't see any from me. Whether you think I understand what I write here about constitutional law, think I copy-and-paste it, or what you want me to do, etc. does not interest me. I'm confident that many other people who have read my posts on these forums on issues of constitutional law know that I don't need to plagiarize. They know that if I am using someone else's words, I quote them and cite the quotation, and that wherever I don't do that, it is because I am speaking from my own knowledge.

So lots of pseudo-intellectual diversion but no answers (lol, not a single one)? 7 of 9 justices supported RvW. And there have been no serious challenges. Why is that?

Lack of response noted.
 
I never claimed a woman couldn't get an abortion for whatever reason she chooses. Stop throwing up strawmen as a form of debate.

As for "why do you care"? I'd ask you the same ignorant question. Why the hell are you viewing and responding in a thread about abortion when it apparently is none of your business?

On that note, have a good day - I'm done with your nonsense.

Have fun in delusion! Kindly send a postcard.
 
I appreciate the invitation to your homeland, but I'm not interested in traveling at this time.

A regular tourist visa stamp is all you need to visit London. I have no idea what the entry clearance requirements are to your delusion realm.
 
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