PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abortion.

All this PP outrage cracks me up, Makes me laugh at all the anger based on nothing in reality but the anger and biased one already had before. This isnt really new anger/outrage.
The only real issue on this is if there were laws broken. If factual crimes were committed then punish the criminals.


If PP (or ANY medical facility) broke any laws then Im 100% for prosecuting the people responsible and following any in place protocols for fines etc.
Until any facts come out about that all has no impact to me. Locally there were some medical facilities(not abortion) around here that were suspect of some wrong doing. They eventual were found to have multiple violations. Protocols and laws were followed and action taken. Facility/group exists today under new management (and probation as i believe i read) and thats that.

Anyway nobody had any outrage over "medical facilities", just those people that in fact broke the law.

The point is if PP or any medical facility breaks the law then they should be dealt with but that wont impact my stance on medical facilities or even more specifically abortion.
Abortion is about two lives and trying (even though its factually impossible) to give both equal rights, nothing changes that foundation.

If you were against an trying to find equal ground before you probably still are, if you werent you probably still are not. Logical this has no impact to rights and laws and the abortions debate. Changing a stance on abortion based on this would be like not wanting schools or court house or police stations because of the bad teachers, judges or officers out there, That seems pretty silly.

Anyway, again, if factual LEGAL wrong doing is found to excist, it need to be dealt with ASAP. Fine them and prosecute those people out the butt! ESPECIALLY since its the medical field but other than that . . . its a non impact on OTHER issues for me.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abortion

AGENT J said:

All this PP outrage cracks me up, Makes me laugh at all the anger based on nothing in reality but the anger and biased one already had before. This isnt really new anger/outrage.
The only real issue on this is if there were laws broken. If factual crimes were committed then punish the criminals.


If PP (or ANY medical facility) broke any laws then Im 100% for prosecuting the people responsible and following any in place protocols for fines etc.
Until any facts come out about that all has no impact to me. Locally there were some medical facilities(not abortion) around here that were suspect of some wrong doing. They eventual were found to have multiple violations. Protocols and laws were followed and action taken. Facility/group exists today under new management (and probation as i believe i read) and thats that.

Anyway nobody had any outrage over "medical facilities", just those people that in fact broke the law.

The point is if PP or any medical facility breaks the law then they should be dealt with but that wont impact my stance on medical facilities or even more specifically abortion.
Abortion is about two lives and trying (even though its factually impossible) to give both equal rights, nothing changes that foundation.

If you were against an trying to find equal ground before you probably still are, if you werent you probably still are not. Logical this has no impact to rights and laws and the abortions debate. Changing a stance on abortion based on this would be like not wanting schools or court house or police stations because of the bad teachers, judges or officers out there, That seems pretty silly.

Anyway, again, if factual LEGAL wrong doing is found to excist, it need to be dealt with ASAP. Fine them and prosecute those people out the butt! ESPECIALLY since its the medical field but other than that . . . its a non impact on OTHER issues for me.

Click to expand...

I agree, if someone does something illegal like selling baby parts, they should be prosecuted. But Planned Parenthood is far from innocent. I mean, do you personally believe abortion is ok under any circumstance?

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abortion

JFish123 said:

I mean, do you personally believe abortion is ok under any circumstance?

Click to expand...

Prior to viability - it's none of my damn business what a pregnant woman does with her body.
That's between her, her doctors, and her partner/mate/spouse.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abortion

AGENT J said:

All this PP outrage cracks me up,

Click to expand...

me too

PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Dragonfly said:

me too

Click to expand...

Yeah, 3% abortions is still over 320,000 abortions a year. Not a small numba brah

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

JFish123 said:

Yeah, 3% abortions is still over 320,000 abortions a year. Not a small numba brah

Click to expand...

And the vast majority, over 90%, happen before the 12th week - so I'm totally fine with that because:

it's none of my damn business

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Dragonfly said:

And the vast majority, over 90%, happen before the 12th week - so I'm totally fine with that because:

it's none of my damn business

Click to expand...

Let's see... What does it have before 12 weeks?

18 days from conception, heart begins to beat, with the baby’s own blood.
28 days from conception a baby has eyes, ears, and even a tongue.

42 days: Skeleton is formed. Brain coordinates movement of muscles and organs. Reflex responses have begun.
42 days: Brain waves can be detected, the jaw forms, including teeth and taste buds. The unborn baby begins to swallow amniotic fluid. Fingers and toes are developing.
45 days from conception: The unborn baby is making body movements. By seven weeks the chest and abdomen are fully formed. Swimming with a natural swimmer’s stroke in the amniotic fluid, the baby now looks like a miniature human infant.
44-45 days: Buds of milk teeth appear, and the unborn baby’s facial muscles develop. Eyelids begin to form, protecting the developing eyes. Elbows take shape. Internal organs are present, but immature. 99% of muscles are present, each with its own nerve supply.
52 Days: Spontaneous movement begins. The unborn baby then develops a whole collection of moves over the next 4 weeks including hiccuping, frowning, squinting, furrowing the brow, pursing the lips, moving individual arms and legs, head turning, touching his/her face, breathing (without air), stretching, opening the mouth, yawning and sucking.

8 Weeks: Now a small-scale baby, at approximately 3 cm (1 1/8”) and weighing a gram (1/30gth oz.), yet well proportioned. Every organ is present. Baby’s heartbeat is steady. Stomach produces digestive juices. Liver makes blood cells. Kidneys begin to function. Taste buds are forming.

8 ½ Weeks: The unborn baby’s fingerprints are being engraved. Eyelids and palms of hands are sensitive to touch.

8- 8 ½ Weeks: Of the 4500 structures in the adult body, 4000 are now present in the unborn baby. The skeleton of the arms and legs and the spine begins to stiffen as bone cells are added.

9 Weeks from conception: The unborn baby will bend fingers around an object placed in his/her palm. Unique fingerprints appear. Thumb sucking may occur.

10 Weeks: The unborn baby’s body is sensitive to touch. He/she squints, swallows puckers up brow and frowns. Eyelids, fingerprints and even fingernails are evident.

11 weeks
11 Weeks: The unborn now “practices” breathing, since he/she will have to breathe air immediately after birth. Baby urinates, and stomach muscles can now contract. Vocal chords and taste buds form. Facial expressions and even smiles are evident.

BUT it's ok if they tear it apart before 12 weeks right? After all it's "none of your business." I'm sure you'd think differently if you were back in the womb, no?

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Here's an idea, if you think abortion is wrong, or a sin, don't have one.

If you think it's wrong, fully support improved, comprehensive and HONEST sex education that is NOT simply "abstinence only".
If you think it's wrong, support improved and advanced contraception for both men and women.
If you think it's wrong, support health insurance fully covering both male and female contraception.
If you think it's wrong, support more affordable and more accessible contraception - especially for the poor.
If you think it's wrong, support Plan B availability and accessibility - especially for the poor.

Quite simple really.

Better education, better birth control, cheaper birth control, more easily available birth control = less abortions

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Dragonfly said:

Here's an idea, if you think abortion is wrong, or a sin, don't have one.

Click to expand...

If you think rape is wrong, or a sin, don't rape anyone. :roll:
If you think human trafficking is wrong, or a sin, don't abduct and sell anyone. :roll:

Your "idea" is tone-deaf and ignorant.

As usual, you say words that mean "abandon law, just let god sort it out." And having done this dance many times, you will no doubt again confirm that you are not religious, and you are not an anarchist - in short, this is not your actual argument and you do not believe your own words.

If you think it's wrong, fully support improved, comprehensive and HONEST sex education that is NOT simply "abstinence only".
If you think it's wrong, support improved and advanced contraception for both men and women.
If you think it's wrong, support health insurance fully covering both male and female contraception.
If you think it's wrong, support more affordable and more accessible contraception - especially for the poor.
If you think it's wrong, support Plan B availability and accessibility - especially for the poor.

Click to expand...

There isn't a polite way to directly respond to this, as they all involve expletives.

So let's go philosophical and indirect - you're not entitled to use my money to buy other people things. Stop being envious of other people's money and stop encouraging the growth of the nanny state and the welfare state.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abortion

JFish123 said:

1.)I agree, if someone does something illegal like selling baby parts, they should be prosecuted.
2.) But Planned Parenthood is far from innocent.
3.) I mean, do you personally believe abortion is ok under any circumstance?

Click to expand...

1.) Yes if something ILLEGAL is done prosecute them.
2.) subjective innocents is of no concern to me this is about the law. That was exactly my point. SOME people are tying to paint a picture that they are LEGALLY guilty of things when so far its only been shown they are subjective guilty based on subjective morals of individuals. Best I saw was a couple clinics were found to be in violation of some standards/regulations. Unfortunately that's not rare super rare for medical facilities. SO again simply follow the same protocol (for violations) that is followed for all facilities that have those standards. Nothing needs added.
3.) Not sure I understand your question?
WHat I personally believe doesnt matter much to law and rights. I can answer what I would do if I was king of the world and could just do what ever I want lol Things regarding RvW would basically stay the same. I would move the cutoff to 20/21 weeks based on medical science standards of earliest possible viability. I would legislate more clearly and make fetal rights a reality but they would still give way to woman rights until viability. Then things get a lot tighter.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

JFish123 said:

Yeah, 3% abortions is still over 320,000 abortions a year. Not a small numba brah

Click to expand...

which is meaningless since that's one of the legal medical services they simply provide.
AGain People are free not to like PP but logically theres nothing new going on and PP does way more.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Dragonfly said:

Here's an idea, if you think abortion is wrong, or a sin, don't have one.

If you think it's wrong, fully support improved, comprehensive and HONEST sex education that is NOT simply "abstinence only".
If you think it's wrong, support improved and advanced contraception for both men and women.
If you think it's wrong, support health insurance fully covering both male and female contraception.
If you think it's wrong, support more affordable and more accessible contraception - especially for the poor.
If you think it's wrong, support Plan B availability and accessibility - especially for the poor.

Quite simple really.

Better education, better birth control, cheaper birth control, more easily available birth control = less abortions

Click to expand...

Yet you think its wrong after 12 weeks. How come?

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Fletch said:

Yet you think its wrong after 12 weeks. How come?

Click to expand...

Quote where I said that. Please.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Dragonfly said:

Quote where I said that. Please.

Click to expand...

Dragonfly said:

And the vast majority, over 90%, happen before the 12th week - so I'm totally fine with that because:

it's none of my damn business

Click to expand...

You seem to make a distinction at 12 weeks. How come?

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

JFish123 said:

BUT it's ok if they tear it apart before 12 weeks right? After all it's "none of your business." I'm sure you'd think differently if you were back in the womb, no?

Click to expand...

Um, no. Instead of cutting and pasting, actual education might have benefitted you more.

In the early term abortions, there is no 'tearing' anything 'apart.'

Those abortions flush the embryo out of the womb, painlessly (for the embryo). And er, it's not 'thinking' anything so I'm pretty sure it's silly of you to write about anyone in the womb doing so.

So please save the attempted emotional blackmail and imagined personification.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Fletch said:

You seem to make a distinction at 12 weeks. How come?

Click to expand...

Did you somehow miss where I said this:

Dragonfly said:

Prior to viability - it's none of my damn business what a pregnant woman does with her body.
That's between her, her doctors, and her partner/mate/spouse.

Click to expand...

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

JFish123 said:

Yeah, 3% abortions is still over 320,000 abortions a year. Not a small numba brah

Click to expand...

That 3% number is a bit disingenuous. The actual medical procedure may only take "5-10 minutes", but there is a great deal of pre and post time involved FAQs About Abortion Appointments. So, 3-5 hours, split the difference and call it 4 hours. Most of the other services on that list don't take anywhere near that total time, nor require the number of FTE the abortion procedures do. It would be like a gun store saying that only 2% of its activities is selling guns since it sells 50x more bullets than guns.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Citizen.Seven said:

That 3% number is a bit disingenuous. The actual medical procedure may only take "5-10 minutes", but there is a great deal of pre and post time involved FAQs About Abortion Appointments. So, 3-5 hours, split the difference and call it 4 hours. Most of the other services on that list don't take anywhere near that total time, nor require the number of FTE the abortion procedures do. It would be like a gun store saying that only 2% of its activities is selling guns since it sells 50x more bullets than guns.

Click to expand...

Going to a pain clinic for an epideral also takes 3 to 4 hours.

Paperwork is filled out telling where the pain is located.
What worsens the pain such as standing, sitting, bending etc.
What makes the pain lessen , such as sitting, lying down , heat , ice, etc.

Then taken to exam room where temp and blood pressure are taken , and interview with nurse.
Change into gown.
Interview with doctor explaining what will done, gurney ride into procedural room.
Transfer from gurney to table. Check to make sure fluoroscope ( virtual X-ray ) machine is working properly and patient is positioned right.

Blood pressure cuff hocked up, epideral area cleaned and iodine applied.
Sedative IV started.

Then the doctor come in to give the epideral injections which is about a 10 to 15 minute procedure.

Patient cleaned up and band aids applied if needed.

Then transfer to gurney.
Gurney taken to recovery room.
Blood pressure taken every 10 minutes in recovery for 30 minutes to an hour depending on how long it takes for sedative to wear off.

Next appointment scheduled.

Juice and crackers given to patient.
Patient gets dressed.
Patient helped up and asked to walk a few steps once numbness has worn off.

Driver told to bring car to pick up point.
Patient wheelchaired out to waiting car.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

minnie616 said:

Going to a pain clinic for an epideral also takes 3 to 4.

Paperwork is filled telling where the pain is located.
What worsens the pain such as standing, sitting, bending etc.
What makes the pain lessen , such as sitting, lying down , heat , ice, etc.

Then temp and blood pressure , interview with nurse.
Interview with doctor explaining what will done, gurney ride into procedural room.
Transfer from gurney to table. Check to make sure fluoroscope ( virtual X-ray ) machine is working properly and patient is positioned right.

Blood pressure cuff hocked up, epideral area cleaned and iodine applied.
Sedative IV started.

Then the doctor come in to give the epideral injections which is about a 10 to 15 minute procedure.

Then transfer to gurney.
Gurney taken to recovery room.
Blood pressure taken every 10 minutes in recovery for 30 minutes to an hour depending on how long it takes for sedative to wear off.

Next appointment scheduled.

Juice and crackers given to patient.
Patient helped up and asked to walk a few steps once numbness has worn off.

Driver told to bring car to pick up point.
Patient wheelchaired out to waiting car.

Click to expand...

Yes, another involved medical procedure. But pain clinics generally don't use as a justication "epiderals are only 3% of what we do", just as gun shops don't advertise that selling guns is only 2% of what they do. The FTEs and time necessary are much greater than counting it as one procedure would indicate. That's exactly my point. It certainly takes longer than writing a script for pain meds.

Theoretically, no federal money should be going for abortions (with some rare exceptions). We also recognize that money is fungible. So, why doesn't PP just spin off, or be required via federal funding withholding, its abortion services? Different building, different books, different staff, etc. You would lose the economies of scale, having one provider for all services, but that's rather the point: federal money is indirectly funding abortions if you maintain an abortion-only service isn't economically viable.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

JFish123 said:

Yeah, 3% abortions is still over 320,000 abortions a year. Not a small numba brah

Click to expand...

Uhmmmmmm....you realize that there's only about 800,000 per year in the US (give or take). It's been steadily decreasing because of medical science advances in birth control and kids receiving sex ed at earlier and earlier ages.

You're appear to be like a lot of "punitive pro-life advocates". I mean would you personally like to see a huge cattle herding judicial system created?that will gather up women who have had abortions, lock'em up and throw away the key...than to focus on other way more humane way of dealing with unwanted pregnancies - regardless of whether they happened our of (pro-life's favorites claim) "irresponsibility" or failed birth control?

Why is that so many pro-life advocates can't see the answer to substantially reducing abortions when it stares them in the face?

In the not too distant future there will be a microchip implant for women (placed under the skin) that controls hormones that prevent pregnancies. And they will last for about 15 years and is capable of being turned off when a woman chooses to conceive. I'm hoping a similar technology will be created for men.

But this is just not an acceptable approach for a lot of hell-fire and brimstone folks. They want the gallows to be swinging and the guillotines to be chopping instead.

Man, how nice it must be for all pro-life advocates to be sin free - and only have sex to reproduce. They just hate to waste a good orgasm for bonding and pleasure. They seem to overlook that sex is engage many, many, many, many more times for pleasure.

Well in the very act that produces probably the most intense human pleasure and also sustains humanities existence has turned out to be an unnecessary division among people.

To be honest I don't really care that if humanity continues...if means women have to forced into being breeding stock to achieve that. But that its more and more clear that that that is the genuine pro-life philosophy. I'm thinking that the're thinking that they're on a mission from god, I guess. Dunno.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Citizen.Seven said:

Yes, another involved medical procedure. But pain clinics generally don't use as a justication "epiderals are only 3% of what we do", just as gun shops don't advertise that selling guns is only 2% of what they do. The FTEs and time necessary are much greater than counting it as one procedure would indicate. That's exactly my point. It certainly takes longer than writing a script for pain meds.

Theoretically, no federal money should be going for abortions (with some rare exceptions). We also recognize that money is fungible. So, why doesn't PP just spin off, or be required via federal funding withholding, its abortion services? Different building, different books, different staff, etc. You would lose the economies of scale, having one provider for all services, but that's rather the point: federal money is indirectly funding abortions if you maintain an abortion-only service isn't economically viable.

Click to expand...

How do you recognize that money is fungible in PP? Gosh, a lot of pro-life advocates make that claim, but I've yet to see any verifiable sources to that claim. You want to be the first?

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Removable Mind said:

How do you recognize that money is fungible in PP? Gosh, a lot of pro-life advocates make that claim, but I've yet to see any verifiable sources to that claim. You want to be the first?

Click to expand...

Abortion and non-abortion services are sharing the same administration, facilities, and staff. That unification of resources means that the cost of abortions is being shared with the cost of other resources. Since it's such a moral dilemna, and since abortions are theoretically self-sustaining economically (i.e. federal funding does in no way support them with very rare exceptions), there should be no fiscal hardship in separating it completely from other services. Completely solves the problem.

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Citizen.Seven said:

Yes, another involved medical procedure. But pain clinics generally don't use as a justication "epiderals are only 3% of what we do", just as gun shops don't advertise that selling guns is only 2% of what they do. The FTEs and time necessary are much greater than counting it as one procedure would indicate. That's exactly my point. It certainly takes longer than writing a script for pain meds.

Theoretically, no federal money should be going for abortions (with some rare exceptions). We also recognize that money is fungible. So, why doesn't PP just spin off, or be required via federal funding withholding, its abortion services? Different building, different books, different staff, etc. You would lose the economies of scale, having one provider for all services, but that's rather the point: federal money is indirectly funding abortions if you maintain an abortion-only service isn't economically viable.

Click to expand...

Pain clinics can probably say that "knee injections " are only about 3 percent of what they do.



Federal money does not go for elective abortions.
Only for therapeutic abortions in cases of rape, incest and life of woman.

PP money is not really fungible if you consider how little money PP receives from the Federal government.

A little info about federal funds and Planned Parenthood.

The federal government does not give Planned Parenthood a general fund.

Planned Parenthood centers are reimbursed by the government for providing specific preventive health services, such as cervical-cancer screenings, breast exams, testing for disease and birth control for their low-income patients, just the same way as private doctors and other health clinics are reimbursed for providing specific health services for their low income patients.

All money donated to Planned Parenthood that is earmarked for certain service goes to that service.
For example: funds for breast cancer services go to help more women obtain breast screening exams.

Over 200,000 women request help paying for their abortions every year.

How do abortion funds work?

Most abortion funds are volunteer-run groups that take calls from women who need help paying for an abortion. Other abortion funds work directly with the clinics and take calls only from clinic workers. After you have your abortion, the clinic will send a bill to the abortion fund to cover the amount the fund is contributing. [/B]

Is an abortion fund part of the government?

No. Ever since 1977, when the Hyde Amendment was first implemented, the federal government has refused to cover abortion in public insurance programs. [/B]Abortion funds exist to do what the federal government should do. Some abortion funds are part of larger organizations, like churches or clinics, but not one is part of the government.


Can abortion funds pay the whole cost of my abortion?

Sadly, abortion funds cannot afford to cover the whole cost of your abortion. There are 200,000 women every single year who need help paying for an abortion, and right now there’s just not enough money to go around. Abortion funds will give you as much as they can.

Click to expand...

Abortion Funding FAQ | Fund Abortion Now.org

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

Removable Mind said:

How do you recognize that money is fungible in PP? Gosh, a lot of pro-life advocates make that claim, but I've yet to see any verifiable sources to that claim. You want to be the first?

Click to expand...

I still have to love all the talk about money being fungible so that federal dollars can go to help women get abortions. Didn't we have a whole thread based on how much money they were making with abortion and all the greed involved? I mean if you have to use those allegedly "fungible" federal funds to get women abortions....how much money are they making?:lamo

Re: PP outrage isn't new, its the same outrage from before and doesnt impact abor...

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