Abortion Statistics and Thoughts [W:59]

Johnstons Archive - Abortion Reasons

Compiled results (from the states they could obtain data from) indicate the following;
Also note, these are federally funded abortions, not private pay.

REASONS FOR ABORTIONS: COMPILED ESTIMATES

rape--(0.1-0.6 %)
incest--(0.01-0.1 %)
physical life of mother--(0.1-0.3 %)
physical health of mother--(0.1-3 %)
fetal health--(0.1-1.0 %)
too young/immature/not ready for responsibility--(32 %)
economic--(21-36 %)
to avoid adjusting life--(16 %)
mother single or in poor relationship--(12-13 %)
enough children already--(4-8 %)
sex selection--(<0.1 %)

Marital status is not indicated in any of their statistics (which are pulled from various health departments), so I wouldn't blindly assume that enough children already and economic reasons indicate the women are definitely married with children.

Also worth noting, the rape\incest argument appears to be a fallacy, based on these numbers.

Kr1ll1n said:

Johnstons Archive - Abortion Reasons

Compiled results (from the states they could obtain data from) indicate the following;
Also note, these are federally funded abortions, not private pay.

REASONS FOR ABORTIONS: COMPILED ESTIMATES

rape--(0.1-0.6 %)
incest--(0.01-0.1 %)
physical life of mother--(0.1-0.3 %)
physical health of mother--(0.1-3 %)
fetal health--(0.1-1.0 %)
too young/immature/not ready for responsibility--(32 %)
economic--(21-36 %)
to avoid adjusting life--(16 %)
mother single or in poor relationship--(12-13 %)
enough children already--(4-8 %)
sex selection--(<0.1 %)

Marital status is not indicated in any of their statistics (which are pulled from various health departments), so I wouldn't blindly assume that enough children already and economic reasons indicate the women are definitely married with children.

Also worth noting, the rape\incest argument appears to be a fallacy, based on these numbers.

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This is good news. As it means that a third of abortions could be prevented with charity/helping financially.

Kr1ll1n said:

Johnstons Archive - Abortion Reasons

Compiled results (from the states they could obtain data from) indicate the following;
Also note, these are federally funded abortions, not private pay.

REASONS FOR ABORTIONS: COMPILED ESTIMATES

rape--(0.1-0.6 %)
incest--(0.01-0.1 %)
physical life of mother--(0.1-0.3 %)
physical health of mother--(0.1-3 %)
fetal health--(0.1-1.0 %)
too young/immature/not ready for responsibility--(32 %)
economic--(21-36 %)
to avoid adjusting life--(16 %)
mother single or in poor relationship--(12-13 %)
enough children already--(4-8 %)
sex selection--(<0.1 %)

Marital status is not indicated in any of their statistics (which are pulled from various health departments), so I wouldn't blindly assume that enough children already and economic reasons indicate the women are definitely married with children.

Also worth noting, the rape\incest argument appears to be a fallacy, based on these numbers.

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On rape pregnancy and abortion:

Health Impact of Violence Against Women


"Findings based on the National Women's Study (Holmes, Resnick, Kilpatrick, & Best, 1996) found that approximately 5% of reported rapes of women in childbearing years result in pregnancy. Reviews of other studies (e.g. Goodman, Koss, & Russo, 1993) found comparable estimates."

Rape and Sexual Assault - definition of Rape and Sexual Assault in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"According to the National Women's Study, approximately 5% of adult female rape victims become pregnant as a result of their assault, leading to 32,100 pregnancies a year among women 18 years of age or older. Approximately 50% of pregnant rape victims had an abortion, 6% put the child up for adoption, and 33% kept the child (the remaining pregnancies resulted in miscarriage)."


Since 50% of pregnant rape victims chose abortion according to a reliable study (unlike Makhorn's) and we know that 5% of reported rapes result in pregnancy (as opposed to the higher figure that would be true for unreported rapes), we know that in at least 2.5% of reported rape cases, the victims choose abortion. These are not just federally funded abortions. Since the rape rate is actually much higher than these reports, it's more likely that there are more abortions due to rape pregnancy.

But the issue here is not that few abortions are for the reason of rape. If one rape victim per year became pregnant in the US, if she were legally forced to give her reason for seeking an abortion, the government would be presuming her guilty of deserving pregnancy as a punishment and would be demanding that she prove that she is innocent of deserving that punishment, whereas in court, the prosecuted rapist is presumed innocent of committing rape unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So that rape victim would know that her government did not give her equal justice at all - it would be a justice that gave the benefit of the doubt to her rapist but not to her. You may want to live in such a society, but I sure don't.

And FYI, since abortion is a legal medical procedure, what difference does it make which reason a woman gives for seeking one? Do you want to punish women with pregnancy? Because, trust me, most women with unwanted pregnancies consider them punishment.

Kr1ll1n said:

Also note, these are federally funded abortions, not private pay.

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I thought the feds only funded abortions that are from rape, incest or when the woman's life is endangered? BTW, when one has an abortion, one is not required to give a reason, so I'm not sure if I trust the statistics. Many women have multiple reasons for choosing to abort, not just one.

choiceone said:

On rape pregnancy and abortion:

Rape and Sexual Assault - definition of Rape and Sexual Assault in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
But the issue here is not that few abortions are for the reason of rape. If one rape victim per year became pregnant in the US, if she were legally forced to give her reason for seeking an abortion, the government would be presuming her guilty of deserving pregnancy as a punishment and would be demanding that she prove that she is innocent of deserving that punishment, whereas in court, the prosecuted rapist is presumed innocent of committing rape unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So that rape victim would know that her government did not give her equal justice at all - it would be a justice that gave the benefit of the doubt to her rapist but not to her. You may want to live in such a society, but I sure don't.

And FYI, since abortion is a legal medical procedure, what difference does it make which reason a woman gives for seeking one? Do you want to punish women with pregnancy? Because, trust me, most women with unwanted pregnancies consider them punishment.

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Wow, more "pity the woman" projection. If the government required a reason be given, how does that equate to the government considering pregnancy as a punishment? That is an awful big stretch. I would hope a woman would want to have reported that she was raped...............

Kr1ll1n said:

Wow, more "pity the woman" projection. If the government required a reason be given, how does that equate to the government considering pregnancy as a punishment? That is an awful big stretch. I would hope a woman would want to have reported that she was raped...............

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In another thread she actually said that being pregnant denies a woman from being a person, if you can believe that ****. :roll:

What's the point of this thread? There is no question or situation posited.

I can only assume that this is an attempt to make the case women have abortions out avoiding "inconvenience" and that women who have abortions are selfish for choosing themselves over their unborn child?

Ok.... Whats your point?
Is this supposed to change my opinion? Because it doesnt...

TheDemSocialist said:

Ok.... Whats your point?
Is this supposed to change my opinion? Because it doesnt...

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Don't you see? Women cannot be trusted with their children! They abort them the minute their pregnancy interferes with a shoe sale or girls night out! Women need other people, mostly men, to decide what is best for them. Else they get way uppity and start thinking for themselves about whether or not they are ready to be pregnant and deliver a baby and raise it and how they'll pay for it and all that.

RadicalModerate said:

Don't you see? Women cannot be trusted with their children! They abort them the minute their pregnancy interferes with a shoe sale or girls night out! Women need other people, mostly men, to decide what is best for them. Else they get way uppity and start thinking for themselves about whether or not they are ready to be pregnant and deliver a baby and raise it and how they'll pay for it and all that.

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Ohhh now i see the light! **** women and their damn personal choice! We men know what is best for them! The government knows what is best and they own the vagina!

No, HE said that it is established as scientific fact (and provided links, with references) that gender is established AT CONCEPTION.

I also said that saying pro-choice proponents are anti-woman is a fallacy, if you take the dictionary definition of woman being a "human female".
You end up with a conflict. The right for a woman to live (based on the dictionary definition, and scientific fact of gender at conception), vs. the right for a woman to choose (abortion).

choiceone said:

And FYI, since abortion is a legal medical procedure, what difference does it make which reason a woman gives for seeking one? . Do you want to punish women with pregnancy? Because, trust me, most women with unwanted pregnancies consider them punishment

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answer? it doesnt

Kr1ll1n said:

Wow, more "pity the woman" projection. If the government required a reason be given, how does that equate to the government considering pregnancy as a punishment? That is an awful big stretch. I would hope a woman would want to have reported that she was raped...............

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You are assuming that the woman is not so psychologically traumatized that she is unable to report a rape. Your insensitive comment on "pity the woman" projection shows that you are relatively unfamiliar with the problem of rape of girls and women. Depending on the case, rape can be so psychologically traumatizing even for psychologically strong women for whom major aggravated assault would not be that the women are thrown into major depression and much worse.

Mental Health Impact of Rape

According to this study, rape victims are 4.1 times more likely to contemplate suicide than non-crime victims.

As far as the pregnancy as punishment paradigm is concerned, it basically holds that any girl or woman who had consensual sex has to suffer the consequence of pregnancy if she becomes pregnant, but she does not have to suffer the consequence if the sex was non-consensual (rape) or if it seriously threatens her life or health. Hence, the government is willing to pay for abortion in cases of rape and threats to the woman's life or health, but not otherwise. Unwanted pregnancy is punishment. Studies have shown significantly adverse mental health outcomes for women who have unwanted pregnancies whether they deal with them by having abortions or carrying them to term and giving birth (the rates are about the same).

Kr1ll1n said:

No, HE said that it is established as scientific fact (and provided links, with references) that gender is established AT CONCEPTION.

I also said that saying pro-choice proponents are anti-woman is a fallacy, if you take the dictionary definition of woman being a "human female".
You end up with a conflict. The right for a woman to live (based on the dictionary definition, and scientific fact of gender at conception), vs. the right for a woman to choose (abortion).

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Only genetic gender is established at conception. Phenotypic or morphological gender is not established until later in pregnancy. Sex organs only begin to develop in the seventh week, and depending on the specific hormonal environment in the uterus, feminizing or androgenizing, a genetically male embryo can develop female sex organs or a genetically female embryo can develop male sex organs. Psychological gender is apparently established at a later time in pregnancy. Meanwhile, it is possible for a genetic male/morphological female or genetic female/morphological male to be born and, unless DNA testing is done, it may be years before anyone knows what the genetic gender is. I can't believe you do not know this.

choiceone said:

And FYI, since abortion is a legal medical procedure, what difference does it make which reason a woman gives for seeking one? Do you want to punish women with pregnancy? Because, trust me, most women with unwanted pregnancies consider them punishment.

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Some of us see this as a Moral and Personal Responsibility issue as much, if not moreso than, a Legal issue. That is why the precentages related to rape and incest are important.... those are the two situations in which the woman did not make a conscious decision to engage in the act which made her pregnant. In all other cases the woman (and the man) are facing the consequences of a willful act. Regardless of whether or not they used one or more forms of contraception, they engaged in a knowing act that had the potential to lead to pregnancy. At that point they have consented to being parents if it comes to that, so far as we are concerned.

Tigger said:

Some of us see this as a Moral and Personal Responsibility issue as much, if not moreso than, a Legal issue. That is why the precentages related to rape and incest are important.... those are the two situations in which the woman did not make a conscious decision to engage in the act which made her pregnant. In all other cases the woman (and the man) are facing the consequences of a willful act. Regardless of whether or not they used one or more forms of contraception, they engaged in a knowing act that had the potential to lead to pregnancy. At that point they have consented to being parents if it comes to that, so far as we are concerned.

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Right. Pregnancy, which is only endured by the woman, represents a kind of contract that cannot be broken by abortion. Pregnancy is a binding agreement, according to you.

RadicalModerate said:

Right. Pregnancy, which is only endured by the woman, represents a kind of contract that cannot be broken by abortion. Pregnancy is a binding agreement, according to you.

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Yes. It's also a binding contract to MARRIAGE so far as I'm concerned. Eighteen years and nine months of commitment by BOTH PARTIES involved in creating the child. No Exceptions.

Tigger said:

Yes. It's also a binding contract to MARRIAGE so far as I'm concerned. Eighteen years and nine months of commitment by BOTH PARTIES involved in creating the child. No Exceptions.

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Thank god your concerns have nothing to do with law and facts, makes me happy.

Tigger said:

Yes. It's also a binding contract to MARRIAGE so far as I'm concerned. Eighteen years and nine months of commitment by BOTH PARTIES involved in creating the child. No Exceptions.

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At the very least, Tigger doesn't try to hide his contempt for women. I think you're 100% wrong, but I do give you credit for having the spine to say it.

Scrabaholic said:

I thought the feds only funded abortions that are from rape, incest or when the woman's life is endangered? BTW, when one has an abortion, one is not required to give a reason, so I'm not sure if I trust the statistics. Many women have multiple reasons for choosing to abort, not just one.

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The problem is that Medicaid is only partly federally funded - states supplement the funds and also administer the program. So when reporting is done on Medicaid funded abortions, the federal and state funds are mixed up. The states only use federal funds under the restrictions of the Hyde Amendment, but states that want to use their own additional funds for abortions the Hyde Amendment does not let federal funds be used for can do that. So it's really wrong to say these were reasons given for federally funded abortions, as the quantitative data are just for Medicaid in general, and all those other abortions can be paid for by individual states from their own supplementary contributions to Medicaid if they want to. The data are not separated by federal and state contributions to the state Medicaid expenditure.

Tigger said:

Yes. It's also a binding contract to MARRIAGE so far as I'm concerned. Eighteen years and nine months of commitment by BOTH PARTIES involved in creating the child. No Exceptions.

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Thank you for your effective ad for female celibacy and lesbianism.

choiceone said:

Thank you for your effective ad for female celibacy and lesbianism.

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I'm all for Male and female celibacy prior to marriage. As for the lesbianism... At least it shows you which people are not to be trusted.

RadicalModerate said:

At the very least, Tigger doesn't try to hide his contempt for women. I think you're 100% wrong, but I do give you credit for having the spine to say it.

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Why wouldn't I? It's not like I give a **** what people think of me or anything like that.

Tigger said:

I'm all for Male and female celibacy prior to marriage. As for the lesbianism... At least it shows you which people are not to be trusted.

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Could you explain what you mean by "it shows you which people are not to be trusted"?

choiceone said:

Could you explain what you mean by "it shows you which people are not to be trusted"?

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You made a suggestion that a policy like the one I had described would lead to an increase in Lesbianism; presumably as a means for these women to deal with their "needs".That would, in my mind, show a desire for personal gratification over morality and decency in that individual and make them unworthy of my trust and/or respect.