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Abortions - Why? [W:280, 411, 1768]

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Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
What ad hominem attacks?

You respond to a substantive assertion of why you're delusional with delusions.

You lay at our hands the number of violent criminals who died from self-inflicted wounds.

I lay on your hands the hundreds of millions of innocent human beings whom you and those like you permit to be killed and want the world to continue to do nothing to prevent or punish this action.


Your "victims" are both relatively few in number and their deaths are well-earned.
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They aren't human beings. What makes us characteristically and specifically human, isn't there, yet.

And, if you are a Christian, which you seem to be, they aren't innocent. They are guilty by original sin.

Now, those articles if you do not mind? Thanks.
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

zgoldsmith23 said:
Oh JayDubya - about those articles you were supposed to find to substantiate your claim? I'd like them. Thanks.
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Pick up any Biology 101 or embryology textbook you want. Amazon has some free samples for you since it will quite possibly be the first time for you looking at one.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
Pick up any Biology 101 or embryology textbook you want. Amazon has some free samples for you since it will quite possibly be the first time for you looking at one.
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Translation: "I don't have any articles from any REAL Journals or Research"

Nice ad hom by the way!
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

zgoldsmith23 said:
They aren't human beings.
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What species are they then?

And, if you are a Christian, which you seem to be, they aren't innocent. They are guilty by original sin.
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I'm not religious. Even if I were, this statement is farcical. We're talking about the initiation of force here, not some conceptualization of sin.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
What species are they then?
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It's not about species. It's about they are not capable of rational thinking or self consciousness.


I'm not religious. Even if I were, this statement is farcical. We're talking about the initiation of force here, not some conceptualization of sin.
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Initiation of force? You mean against another human being? Oh that's right, they aren't human beings, yet.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

zgoldsmith23 said:
It's not about species. It's about they are not capable of rational thinking or self consciousness.
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This is an argument about personhood and what humans have value, not about humanity. The former is subjective, the latter is not.

Initiation of force? You mean against another human being? Oh that's right, they aren't human beings, yet.
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One can initiate force against other organisms just fine, but in this case the victim is objectively a human being.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

Babylon_Drifter said:
Is that anymore different then asking, "What if your parents abstained have sex?" The results would have been no different and you wouldn't have been the wiser.
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That is a totally different scenario. I am talking about if they made the choice to have a baby, conception occurs, and the baby is in its first stage of growth and has a chance at life. To cut that life off after it has began or has a chance at beginning. Abstaining is great. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

Down syndrome.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
This is an argument about personhood and what humans have value, not about humanity. The former is subjective, the latter is not
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Humans don't have some inherent value.

One can initiate force against other organisms just fine, but in this case the victim is objectively a human being.
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So you are saying it's fine to do it to other things but not said fetus? That's speciesism. It's not even logically consistent.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

RDU23 said:
I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?
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You're assuming those are the only reasons someone might have an abortion. Someone might be forced to abort in order to save her own life.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

zgoldsmith23 said:
Humans don't have some inherent value.
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Well that's one opinion.

So you are saying it's fine to do it to other things but not said fetus?
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No, that isn't what I was saying.

In response to your "Initiation of force? You mean against another human being?" I am stating that people can initiate force against other organisms. That is what I said, in addition to clarifying objective facts for you once again not understanding that abortion kills a human being.


... Although it's generally true just the same.

A hunter initiates force against a deer. In such a case, the deer has no rights to violate and the hunter has a nice meal of venison. As far as I'm concerned there are no moral issues whatsoever. If you want to suggest that deer should be legal persons, you are welcome to take that stance.
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

zgoldsmith23 said:
Humans don't have some inherent value.



So you are saying it's fine to do it to other things but not said fetus? That's speciesism. It's not even logically consistent.
Click to expand...

I'd respond with something logical but I'd smear steak blood on my keyboard.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

Are you ever going to supply me those articles or are you gonna keep trumpeting "science says this!" but have nothing to back it up?

JayDubya said:
Well that's one opinion.
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It's the default position and there is no reason to assume otherwise.

No, that isn't what I was saying.

In response to your "Initiation of force? You mean against another human being?" I am stating that people can initiate force against other organisms. That is what I said, in addition to clarifying objective facts for you once again not understanding that abortion kills a human being.


... Although it's generally true just the same.

A hunter initiates force against a deer. In such a case, the deer has no rights to violate and the hunter has a nice meal of venison. As far as I'm concerned there are no moral issues whatsoever. If you want to suggest that deer should be legal persons, you are welcome to take that stance.
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The deer certainly has rights. If we humans, as animals, have rights, then deer and other animals, especially mammals, have rights, too. Again, logically consistant.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
Pick up any Biology 101 or embryology textbook you want. Amazon has some free samples for you since it will quite possibly be the first time for you looking at one.
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Oh, you mean something like this?

classi12.jpg

"In gametic meiosis, a reproductive cell produces (usually four) haploid gametes (sex cells) that combine to produce a zygote, which grows into a diploid individual. Humans and most animals reproduce through this method."

EDIT: Taken from here. Wikipedia has a similar image which it cites as being from "Freeman & Worth's Biology of Plants"
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
What ad hominem attacks?
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You wrote, "It just didn't make any goddamn sense so I wanted to make sure you were actually that deluded. Thanks for the confirmation." Funny how you can't dismiss my argument so you resort to crying I am "deluded."

I lay on your hands the hundreds of millions of innocent human beings whom you and those like you permit to be killed and want the world to continue to do nothing to prevent or punish this action.
Click to expand...

And yet, millions of abortions are performed through your deliberate inaction and ignorance on top of the tens of thousands killed through your laws. Again, I have to ask, how can you possibly be pro-"life" when your ideology ends up killing even more people? Are you incapable of feeling any form of irony?

Your "victims" are both relatively few in number and their deaths are well-earned.
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More "lifer" compassion. You see, this is why you lost Roe v Wade. Only the coldest of hearts would find this acceptable.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

RDU23 said:
I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?
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Almost everyday I live, I wish I was a miscarriage. Your argument against abortion is lacking in both logic and substance. It's not about taking a risk, or preserving a life. It's about government intrusion into people's personal lives and medical decisions. It's about the arrogance of people who believe that they have a right to force others to live by their standards.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

iangb said:
Oh, you mean something like this?

classi12.jpg

"In gametic meiosis, a reproductive cell produces (usually four) haploid gametes (sex cells) that combine to produce a zygote, which grows into a diploid individual. Humans and most animals reproduce through this method."
Click to expand...


Uh-huh. Now, what wrong thing did you take away from that such that you seem to think it's the smoking gun, the feather in your cap, etc?
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

evanescence said:
Almost everyday I live, I wish I was a miscarriage. Your argument against abortion is lacking in both logic and substance. It's not about taking a risk, or preserving a life. It's about government intrusion into people's personal lives and medical decisions. It's about the arrogance of people who believe that they have a right to force others to live by their standards.
Click to expand...

citizen_cane.gif
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

Babylon_Drifter said:
More "lifer" compassion. You see, this is why you lost Roe v Wade. Only the coldest of hearts would find this acceptable.
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"Why I lost Roe v. Wade?"

Wow, I was unaware I was on the Supreme Court, or that my "coldheartedness" was the deciding factor for the 7 people voting to overturn state abortion laws in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States... instead of their own functional illiteracy and gross incompetence.
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

RDU23 said:
That is a totally different scenario. I am talking about if they made the choice to have a baby, conception occurs, and the baby is in its first stage of growth and has a chance at life. To cut that life off after it has began or has a chance at beginning. Abstaining is great. Nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

It isn't. If you were aborted or weren't conceived, you wouldn't have been conscious in the first place.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
Uh-huh. Now, what wrong thing did you take away from that such that you seem to think it's the smoking gun, the feather in your cap, etc?
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In my opinion, the OP is well made, a good example of the personal aspect of this debate....especially this:

"I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion?"

See that Jay...No smoking gun. No incivility. No judgement....hmmmmm.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
"Why I lost Roe v. Wade?"

Wow, I was unaware I was on the Supreme Court, or that my coldheartedness was the deciding factor for the 7 people voting to overturn state abortion laws in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States... instead of their own functional illiteracy and gross incompetence.
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The laws you championed didn't work and it resulted in having to legalize abortion. What your people defended were laws that created a public healthcare crisis, tens of thousands of women had to die and millions of abortions were still being performed under your watch. Why would anyone want to go back to the pre-Roe era?

The only people who are functionally illiterate of history and grossly incompetent in saving lives is the pro-"lifers."
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

Babylon_Drifter said:
The laws you championed didn't work and it resulted in having to legalize abortion.
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Uhh. No. The people did not decide to change the laws punishing abortion with criminal penalties, not for utilitarian reasons or any other reason. The Supreme Court hallucinated a non-existent constitutional right as a "prenumbra" of a non-existent constitutional right, then inflicted it on the people of every state. That's all.
 
Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya said:
Uh-huh. Now, what wrong thing did you take away from that such that you seem to think it's the smoking gun, the feather in your cap, etc?
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Sorry, I didn't realise that reading wasn't your strong point.

A simple question, then. Does the above indicate that a zygote is a diploid individual, or not? I'll give you a clue: "...a zygote, which grows into a diploid individual"
 
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Re: Abortions - Why?

iangb said:
Sorry, I didn't realise that reading wasn't your strong point.

A simple question, then. Does the above indicate that a zygote is a diploid individual, or not? I'll give you a clue: "...a zygote, which grows into a diploid individual"
Click to expand...

Don't worry iangb, he likes science but doesn't had anything to back his claims up. He spouted scientists say life begins "here" but has yet to link the research the scientists did. Hell, I supplied him the place to look.
 
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