Post Abortion Stress Syndrome

We talk a lot about the damage done to women who seek back-alley abortions, the infection and death these can cause.

And we talk a lot about the killing of prenatal humans that every abortion does.

No one really "likes" abortion, not those who are faced with one, not those who are undergoing the procedure, and both would have certainly preferred not to be in that position. And contrary to some pro-life presentations, pro-choice people don't "like" abortion, they just want to be sure it's a legally available choice.

But what no one frequently seems to be talking about is the damage having an abortion can inflict on a woman.

Then I read today about something called post abortion stress syndrome, or "PASS" for short.

Post abortion stress syndrome is apparently the psychological damage, and sometimes physiologically subsequently connected damage, that occurs in varying degrees, sometimes traumatically evidenced, as a result of realizing that, in truth, the abortion just killed a young human in the early stages of that human's life, a human that would have grown up to be the woman's child after birth.

Understandably it is not surprising at all that this syndrome exists.

Here are some associated links to a site that presents PASS:

PASS Support Site - What is PASS?
Symptoms and Frequently Asked Questions About Post Abortion Stress Syndrome
Opinions

Each of these links has other links that elaborate on post abortion stress syndrome.

Here are a few excerpts from the links:

"PASS" is different from 'normal feelings' of loss and depression immediately following an abortion. How is it different? When is it PASS and not just 'normal feelings'?
When the reactions and feelings in the first 3 months following an abortion are severe, causing such problems as:

Self-harm, strong suicidal thoughts or suicide attempts
Increase in dangerous and/or unhealthy activities (alcohol/drug abuse, anorexia/bulimia, compulsive over-eating, cutting, casual and indifferent sex and other inappropriate risk-taking behaviors)
Depression that is stronger than just 'a little sadness or the blues'
Inability to perform normal self-care activities
Inability to function normally in her job or in school
Inability to take care of or relate to her existing children or function normally in her other relationships (i.e. with a spouse, partner, other family member or friends)
A desire to immediately get pregnant and 'replace' the baby that was aborted, even when all the circumstances that led her to 'choose abortion' the first time are still in place.

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Other PASS problems could include short and/or long term problems with:

emotions, and dealing with emotional issues
struggles with depression
continued suicidal thoughts or attempts
anxiety and panic disorder
addictions of all kinds
difficulty sleeping and sleeping problems
disturbing dreams and/or nightmares
problems with phobias, or increase in severity of existing phobias
eating disorders
"replacement baby" syndrome
repeated unplanned pregnancies with additional abortions
repeated unplanned pregnancies carried to term
"atonement marriage", where the woman marries the partner from the abortion, to help justify the abortion
trouble with relationships and dealing with partners
distress at the sight of other pregnant women, other people's babies and children
inability to deal with or socialize with other pregnant women, other people's babies and children
codependence and inability to make decisions easily
problems with severe and disproportionate anger
work and school problems (unable to function normally)
problems bonding with and caring for existing children or new babies
distress and problems with later pregnancy
added emotional issues and problems when dealing with future infertility or other physical complications resulting from the abortion.
unhealthy obsession with excelling at work or school, to justify the abortion

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PASS is stuck in the political war of abortion. Because of politics and money, "PASS" is not recognized as real, yet PMDD and PPD are. Women suffering from PMDD and PPD are given help, support and treatment. Women with PASS are not, and are left to suffer alone, in silence.

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Clearly, there are "normal feelings" of depression and loss following an abortion, obviously, considering what abortion is.

But PASS is an increase in intensity of those feelings beyond the norm.

There is perhaps a predisposition to PASS. And, it can be definitely life-threatening.

It behooves anyone considering an abortion to read about the likely repercussions, repercussions that occur both to a normal degree and a PASS degree.

Knowing all about abortion provides one with the most accurate information to make a truly intelligent and really informed choice.

And, in my opinion, the reality of the psychological damage, whether small or great, that abortion inflicts upon women, behooves us, not to ludicrously try to overturn Roe v. Wade and the gang, but to really put some effort into getting the new state-of-the-art essentially 100% safe and effective conception-prevention "pills" for both men and women currently held up in FDA testing through testing and cheaply to market. This will soon thereafter drastically decrease the number of abortions and thereby equally reduce the number of women suffering from a variety of degrees of depression and loss following an abortion.

Ever since the sexual revolution, abortion has been more openly commonplace.

But what has remained hidden by the pro-choice v. pro-life controversy focusing on the woman's choice and the prenatal's life respectively is the damage that having an abortion inflicts on a woman.

It's time that the reality of the depression and loss that follows having an abortion and PASS itself both come out of the closet.

Ontologuy said:

We talk a lot about the damage done to women who seek back-alley abortions, the infection and death these can cause.

And we talk a lot about the killing of prenatal humans that every abortion does.

No one really "likes" abortion, not those who are faced with one, not those who are undergoing the procedure, and both would have certainly preferred not to be in that position. And contrary to some pro-life presentations, pro-choice people don't "like" abortion, they just want to be sure it's a legally available choice.

But what no one frequently seems to be talking about is the damage having an abortion can inflict on a woman.

Then I read today about something called post abortion stress syndrome, or "PASS" for short.

Post abortion stress syndrome is apparently the psychological damage, and sometimes physiologically subsequently connected damage, that occurs in varying degrees, sometimes traumatically evidenced, as a result of realizing that, in truth, the abortion just killed a young human in the early stages of that human's life, a human that would have grown up to be the woman's child after birth.

Understandably it is not surprising at all that this syndrome exists.

Here are some associated links to a site that presents PASS:

PASS Support Site - What is PASS?
Symptoms and Frequently Asked Questions About Post Abortion Stress Syndrome
Opinions

Each of these links has other links that elaborate on post abortion stress syndrome.

Here are a few excerpts from the links:







Clearly, there are "normal feelings" of depression and loss following an abortion, obviously, considering what abortion is.

But PASS is an increase in intensity of those feelings beyond the norm.

There is perhaps a predisposition to PASS. And, it can be definitely life-threatening.

It behooves anyone considering an abortion to read about the likely repercussions, repercussions that occur both to a normal degree and a PASS degree.

Knowing all about abortion provides one with the most accurate information to make a truly intelligent and really informed choice.

And, in my opinion, the reality of the psychological damage, whether small or great, that abortion inflicts upon women, behooves us, not to ludicrously try to overturn Roe v. Wade and the gang, but to really put some effort into getting the new state-of-the-art essentially 100% safe and effective conception-prevention "pills" for both men and women currently held up in FDA testing through testing and cheaply to market. This will soon thereafter drastically decrease the number of abortions and thereby equally reduce the number of women suffering from a variety of degrees of depression and loss following an abortion.

Ever since the sexual revolution, abortion has been more openly commonplace.

But what has remained hidden by the pro-choice v. pro-life controversy focusing on the woman's choice and the prenatal's life respectively is the damage that having an abortion inflicts on a woman.

It's time that the reality of the depression and loss that follows having an abortion and PASS itself both come out of the closet.

Click to expand...

Actually, after the claim for psychological damage after abortion was made, studies were done that disproved this. The Wikipedia site on Abortion and mental health (Abortion and mental health - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has references and links to major reviews of the literature which conclude that there is no special syndrome. I cited a link for you on a previous thread somewhere. There are two issues involved. One is that multiple abortions can give results associating with mental problems, but this seems to be because mental problems can be a causal factor for multiple unwanted pregnancies. The other is that there is no greater mental stress problem for those who have abortions and those who carry unwanted pregnancies to term - i.e., in both cases, the problem is not abortion but outcomes of unwanted pregnancies no matter which choice one makes.

choiceone said:

Actually, after the claim for psychological damage after abortion was made, studies were done that disproved this. The Wikipedia site on Abortion and mental health (Abortion and mental health - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has references and links to major reviews of the literature which conclude that there is no special syndrome. I cited a link for you on a previous thread somewhere. There are two issues involved. One is that multiple abortions can give results associating with mental problems, but this seems to be because mental problems can be a causal factor for multiple unwanted pregnancies. The other is that there is no greater mental stress problem for those who have abortions and those who carry unwanted pregnancies to term - i.e., in both cases, the problem is not abortion but outcomes of unwanted pregnancies no matter which choice one makes.

Click to expand...

As somebody with some perspective, I can - with 100% certainty - tell you that this is not exactly true.

PASS is probably getting a unique moniker because it has a specific trigger, but it is, ultimately, PTSD. It does happen, quite often, and it should be addressed.

just shows what a traumatic decision it must be for a woman to abort her child. They have nothing but my sympathy.

things like this make me think, maybe...just maybe...we should pass a law requiring women to learn about the possible emotional ramifications of abortion, and to learn about the alternatives to abortion.

hey, it couldn't hurt.

Thunder said:

just shows what a traumatic decision it must be for a woman to abort her child. They have nothing but my sympathy.

things like this make me think, maybe...just maybe...we should pass a law requiring women to learn about the possible emotional ramifications of abortion, and to learn about the alternatives to abortion.

hey, it couldn't hurt.

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In some capacity that already exists. In Texas, you have to receive "Pre-abortion counselling" prior to the procedure, and that counselling must come 24 hours or more prior to the appointment. The counselling is supposed to explain the procedure, potential physical side effects, and local/state resources for more information on abortion and alternatives.

TBH, it's not as effective as it sounds. I scheduled my appointment and was told to hold the line for a 5-minute recorded message, which served as the counselling. Of course, I had plenty of time to think about the procedure before hand, because there was a 3-week wait to get into one of the two PPH facilities in the metroplex that actually performs abortion procedures.

Honestly, what would have made the procedure "better" is not something I feel PPH has the capacity to do, given the limited availability of facilities and the sheer volume of service they're asked to provide. I was ushered through the entire procedure like a piece of cattle. In and out in less than 10 minutes, after waiting with 50 other nervous, upset women for over 2 hours. The doctor didn't even introduce himself, and didn't wait long enough after the pain killers were injected, so the procedure was surprisingly painful. That made the whole process so much worse than it already was. Some compassion or patience or even just humane treatment would have been nice. The only person who even addressed me by name other than the triage nurse was the sonogram tech. She was like the silver lining on a cloud made of crap.

tessaesque said:

In some capacity that already exists. In Texas, you have to receive "Pre-abortion counselling" prior to the procedure, and that counselling must come 24 hours or more prior to the appointment. The counselling is supposed to explain the procedure, potential physical side effects, and local/state resources for more information on abortion and alternatives.

TBH, it's not as effective as it sounds....

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if it informs women about the possible side-effects, emotional trauma, and alternatives to abortion, then its 100% effective.

knowledge is power, and women have a right to make informed decisions.

Thunder said:

if it informs women about the possible side-effects, emotional trauma, and alternatives to abortion, then its 100% effective.

knowledge is power, and women have a right to make informed decisions.

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No offense, but how exactly would you know? I've actually been through it, and unless you somehow changed genders, it's simply impossible for you to have similar experience.

It's a 5-minute voice recording. There is no means of confirming or assuring that the recording is actually listened to. You know what I was doing during that recording? Responding to work e-mails and completing my time-off request for the day of the procedure. Without face-to-face discussion, it isn't counselling, and it isn't effective. And saying otherwise is, quite frankly, ignorant.

tessaesque said:

No offense, but how exactly would you know?....

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how would I know if they have been informed?

if they go to a counseling session that details the possible side-effects, emotional trauma, and alternatives to abortion, then they have been informed. and if they still have the abortion, more power to them as its their body and their right.

Thunder said:

how would I know if they have been informed?

if they go to a counseling session that details the possible side-effects, emotional trauma, and alternatives to abortion, then they have been informed. and if they still have the abortion, more power to them as its their body and their right.

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Did you blatantly ignore what I said? There is no "counselling session". It's a voice recording. Do you know what counselling is?

tessaesque said:

Did you blatantly ignore what I said? There is no "counselling session". It's a voice recording. Do you know what counselling is?

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its the same in every state?
well, in my state, I'd like it to be a 1 on 1 meeting with a professional.

Thunder said:

its the same in every state?
well, in my state, I'd like it to be a 1 on 1 meeting with a professional.

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I never said it was the same. I described a specific situation and explained that it's inefficient. I then explained how the entire process would actually be made less traumatic for women. I really have no idea why comprehension is such a challenge. I'm being quite clear.

choiceone said:

Actually, after the claim for psychological damage after abortion was made, studies were done that disproved this. The Wikipedia site on Abortion and mental health (Abortion and mental health - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has references and links to major reviews of the literature which conclude that there is no special syndrome. I cited a link for you on a previous thread somewhere. There are two issues involved. One is that multiple abortions can give results associating with mental problems, but this seems to be because mental problems can be a causal factor for multiple unwanted pregnancies. The other is that there is no greater mental stress problem for those who have abortions and those who carry unwanted pregnancies to term - i.e., in both cases, the problem is not abortion but outcomes of unwanted pregnancies no matter which choice one makes.

Click to expand...

I find the two, the links I presented in the OP and the Wiki site you present here, to be at least a bit in conflict.

I can't really doubt the references to the the psych associations made by the Wiki reference without examining them myself, though I do know that if it's not yet sufficiently qualified to appear in the DSM, pschiatrists and some psychologists will not pay it much credence, even if it's a real problem for people.

But one of the problems I have with the Wiki link is that from the onset the writer sets the pro-life v. pro-choice tone of the presentation, and whenever PASS or similar is presented, the writer caveats the reader with "but this was a pro-life writer/position" implying validity negation. That tends to detract from trustworthiness of the presentation for me, and I question if the writer was merely pro-choice in a debate of one.

The site I linked didn't present any ideological bias, and at one point in the site info link says they're not there to debate pro-choice v. pro-life or promote/denigrate either, and to look elsewhere if that was the reader's goal.

The site was simply interested in helping those who sufferred from PASS.

I can't help but think, therefore, that if a political game wasn't their goal, why would they concoct a made-up issue?

Since I too have known women, not a one of whom wasn't adversely affected to some degree post-abortion, It's totally believable, not only that there can be degrees of loss and depression post-abortion, but that something like PASS does indeed exist.

The Wiki site politicizes the matter, and thus loses veracity credibility in its denial of what seems a logical post-abortion issue.

That some psychiatrists might say that the woman was predisposed to other issues and that those other issues came up that are underlying in nature, merely triggered by the "stress of abortion", well, to me that's simply one way of saying that here's one of the factors of being predisposed to PASS.

Indeed, if we want to do anecdotes, I knew one woman who had an abortion when she was 15, insisted on by her mother. This woman's older sister also got pregnant at that age and their mom let her keep hers, but not the younger sister's. The abortion nurse then showed her aborted fetus to the 15-year-old hoping to dissuade her from being "careless" in the future. Add it all up, and she didn't make it through the trauma until her mid-thirties, with the help of a lot of therapy, and a "funeral service" for the aborted fetus.

I think there is value in facing the truth, not only about what abortion truly is, but that there most certainly, logically, is going to be post-abortion depression and loss associated because of what it truly is.

That there is a group helping women suffering from PASS, well, the support wouldn't be there if the problem wasn't real.

tessaesque said:

No offense, but how exactly would you know? I've actually been through it, and unless you somehow changed genders, it's simply impossible for you to have similar experience.

It's a 5-minute voice recording. There is no means of confirming or assuring that the recording is actually listened to. You know what I was doing during that recording? Responding to work e-mails and completing my time-off request for the day of the procedure. Without face-to-face discussion, it isn't counselling, and it isn't effective. And saying otherwise is, quite frankly, ignorant.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely a huge contrast, between a 5-minute recording and truly real counseling.

If PASS is a form of PTSD, though PASS isn't in the DSM, PTSD is, and this special version of it, complete with its unique etiology and associated particulars to be addressed, is at the very least a variety of PTSD, and a special prevention/recovery focus on this variety can often be more greatly beneficial than a generic PTSD recovery program.

It would not surprise me, however, that any organization caught up in the polarizing firestorm of the politicized debate on abortion, like Planned Parenthood, for one, in the business of providing abortions, would likely not really give it their all, to say the least, in providing women with the knowledge of varying degrees of potential psychological-physiological repercussions from abortion.

Thus another agency, divorced from the firestorm, should be available to give real pre-abortion counseling.

A complexity to this all is the MASSIVE guilt poured on women who have an abortion. Our real-life advice if the teen/woman DOES decide to abort is to instead just tell people she had a miscarriage.

Many teens and young single women are put under massive family and relationships (and even economic and survival) pressures to abort.

Our "pro-choice" shelter is NOT a pro-abortion shelter. It is to GIVE HER AN ESCAPE from the pressures - and much more - so she can best figure out what she should do. It is not a decision that has to be made immediately. The more raging at her - whether to not abort or to abort - the more likely the woman will abort to just end the issue. Pro-life militants cause a lot of abortions this way that otherwise would not happen. Then she may feel guilty and stupid over it.

I think the massive attempts to shame and guilt someone has an abortion is MORE a psychological harm factor, though I doubt there is any decision of any significance about anything in life that a person can make that some will regret. I think if a woman - in peace, quiet and knowledge - makes her decision - to have an unplanned pregnancy or abort - she will be ok with it. It is the people who rage at TOO abort or rage her NOT to abort are who have problems.

Ontologuy said:

This is absolutely a huge contrast, between a 5-minute recording and truly real counseling.

If PASS is a form of PTSD, though PASS isn't in the DSM, PTSD is, and this special version of it, complete with its unique etiology and associated particulars to be addressed, is at the very least a variety of PTSD, and a special prevention/recovery focus on this variety can often be more greatly beneficial than a generic PTSD recovery program.

It would not surprise me, however, that any organization caught up in the polarizing firestorm of the politicized debate on abortion, like Planned Parenthood, for one, in the business of providing abortions, would likely not really give it their all, to say the least, in providing women with the knowledge of varying degrees of potential psychological-physiological repercussions from abortion.

Thus another agency, divorced from the firestorm, should be available to give real pre-abortion counseling.

Click to expand...

I think the biggest challenge is objectivity. Who do we rely on that will be objective? Churches largely have one agenda. PPH largely another. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any therapeutic discipline that focuses primarily on the psychological toll of fertility (abortion, miscarriage, pregnancy, PPD, etc). There is some specialization in PPD, but it is but one of many issues facing women in regards to fertility.

Counselling is probably a good idea on it's face. But I don't think we can expect, realistically, that we'll "save" a large number of women from the psychological consequences of fertility-based events. In my own case, for example, I was completely blindsided by the after effects of the abortion. One huge reason is probably the complete lack of conversation between women who have had those experiences. Grief groups exist for just about every other form of trauma, but finding women willing to talk openly about an abortion?? It's pretty rare...and I think largely because of the stigma placed upon the act based on the pro-life mindset.

If anything, I think pro-lifers need to do some serious thinking about how they approach their stance. Compassion is not acceptance, and if a pro-lifer can understand that and display compassion they might find that women fair better. Then again, I'm sure there is some faction (though admittedly small) who feel that women deserve the negative effects they experience. A sort of tit-for-tat mentality, if you will.

Ontologuy said:

This is absolutely a huge contrast, between a 5-minute recording and truly real counseling.

If PASS is a form of PTSD, though PASS isn't in the DSM, PTSD is, and this special version of it, complete with its unique etiology and associated particulars to be addressed, is at the very least a variety of PTSD, and a special prevention/recovery focus on this variety can often be more greatly beneficial than a generic PTSD recovery program.

It would not surprise me, however, that any organization caught up in the polarizing firestorm of the politicized debate on abortion, like Planned Parenthood, for one, in the business of providing abortions, would likely not really give it their all, to say the least, in providing women with the knowledge of varying degrees of potential psychological-physiological repercussions from abortion.

Thus another agency, divorced from the firestorm, should be available to give real pre-abortion counseling.

Click to expand...

But who does the counseling? You? I would have no problem with a SHORT waiting period from initial appointment (unless medical needs otherwise), but no more than 3 days and NO mandated "counseling." Counseling is just another talking head spouting their values at her no matter how you size it up. We don't do "counseling." We prove shelter, peace and information of options - not just about abortion but economics, housing, education, etc. Mostly, though, peacefulness and a sense of privacy and security from ANY pressures by anyone at all.

joko104 said:

A complexity to this all is the MASSIVE guilt poured on women who have an abortion. Our real-life advice if the teen/woman DOES decide to abort is to instead just tell people she had a miscarriage.

Many teens and young single women are put under massive family and relationships (and even economic and survival) pressures to abort.

Our "pro-choice" shelter is NOT a pro-abortion shelter. It is to GIVE HER AN ESCAPE from the pressures - and much more - so she can best figure out what she should do. It is not a decision that has to be made immediately. The more raging at her - whether to not abort or to abort - the more likely the woman will abort to just end the issue. Pro-life militants cause a lot of abortions this way that otherwise would not happen. Then she may feel guilty and stupid over it.

I think the massive attempts to shame and guilt someone has an abortion is MORE a psychological harm factor, though I doubt there is any decision of any significance about anything in life that a person can make that some will regret. I think if a woman - in peace, quiet and knowledge - makes her decision - to have an unplanned pregnancy or abort - she will be ok with it. It is the people who rage at TOO abort or rage her NOT to abort are who have problems.

Click to expand...

I disagree. I had a perfectly calm, perfectly personal, perfectly supported abortion situation. It is still incredibly emotionally painful and challenging. It isn't easy, regardless of whether or not there is pressure or judgment involved.

joko104 said:

A complexity to this all is the MASSIVE guilt poured on women who have an abortion. Our real-life advice if the teen/woman DOES decide to abort is to instead just tell people she had a miscarriage.

Many teens and young single women are put under massive family and relationships (and even economic and survival) pressures to abort.

Our "pro-choice" shelter is NOT a pro-abortion shelter. It is to GIVE HER AN ESCAPE from the pressures - and much more - so she can best figure out what she should do. It is not a decision that has to be made immediately. The more raging at her - whether to not abort or to abort - the more likely the woman will abort to just end the issue. Pro-life militants cause a lot of abortions this way that otherwise would not happen. Then she may feel guilty and stupid over it.

I think the massive attempts to shame and guilt someone has an abortion is MORE a psychological harm factor, though I doubt there is any decision of any significance about anything in life that a person can make that some will regret. I think if a woman - in peace, quiet and knowledge - makes her decision - to have an unplanned pregnancy or abort - she will be ok with it. It is the people who rage at TOO abort or rage her NOT to abort are who have problems.

Click to expand...

These are good points, about family pressure and guilt and all.

One of the challenges for those of us who discuss and debate abortion is that we are more tuned into the topic and frequently from a politicized perspective of the polemic that pro-choice and pro-life create.

Our minds are filled with information and opinion that the general public at large would not experience.

Granted, the media can extend the debate to the public, but most of the general public simply aren't as polarized as those taking pro-life and pro-choice positions on discussion sites.

Thus for the great general public, they're left to experience their situation without bias that clouds the picture of what pregnancy truly is and thus what abortion truly is .. until family members caught up in the firestorm on either polemic provide "help" that isn't requested .. and, of course, as the old often-true saying goes: "help that isn't asked for isn't help".

That's why, as I posted immediately previous, I believe that pre-abortion counseling should be available, even required perhaps, and offered, not through an organization likely caught up in the firestorm of the debate, either pro-choice or pro-life, but through a more neutral and thus honest organization that can present accurate information in an unbiased fashion, void of pressure or guilt either way, to accurately present to the woman the real information about abortion as well as the pros and cons.

Ontologuy said:

These are good points, about family pressure and guilt and all.

One of the challenges for those of us who discuss and debate abortion is that we are more tuned into the topic and frequently from a politicized perspective of the polemic that pro-choice and pro-life create.

Our minds are filled with information and opinion that the general public at large would not experience.

Granted, the media can extend the debate to the public, but most of the general public simply aren't as polarized as those taking pro-life and pro-choice positions on discussion sites.

Thus for the great general public, they're left to experience their situation without bias that clouds the picture of what pregnancy truly is and thus what abortion truly is .. until family members caught up in the firestorm on either polemic provide "help" that isn't requested .. and, of course, as the old often-true saying goes: "help that isn't asked for isn't help".

That's why, as I posted immediately previous, I believe that pre-abortion counseling should be available, even required perhaps, and offered, not through an organization likely caught up in the firestorm of the debate, either pro-choice or pro-life, but through a more neutral and thus honest organization that can present accurate information in an unbiased fashion, void of pressure or guilt either way, to accurately present to the woman the real information about abortion as well as the pros and cons.

Click to expand...

The problem is there is no such thing as "unbiased" about abortion other than maybe medical aspects of it.
And, of course, you worded it in a biased way - as it also should be "the pros and cons of carrying an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy to birth." Just what kind of counseling it is is a bias.
And how many hours do you think it would before there would pro-life protestors that the pregnant woman had to get through to attend counseling for which abortion is one of the options within that counseling - ie government funded mandated counseling no less. Pro-life and most Republican officials would go nuts! How many scandelous hidden videos of a counselor explaining a woman's right to an abortion would FOX be showing - at the government financed "counseling" sessions - which would be called government/taxpayer supported pro-abortion counseling unless the counseling was "abortion will destroy your life".

tessaesque said:

I disagree. I had a perfectly calm, perfectly personal, perfectly supported abortion situation. It is still incredibly emotionally painful and challenging. It isn't easy, regardless of whether or not there is pressure or judgment involved.

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I think unplanned / unwanted pregnancies often will be painful and challenging for which the woman may well not feel good about whatever decision she made. There is never a way to know how a woman would feel after the decision she didn't make. I don't dispute that some women regret having an abortion.

tessaesque said:

I think the biggest challenge is objectivity. Who do we rely on that will be objective? Churches largely have one agenda. PPH largely another. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any therapeutic discipline that focuses primarily on the psychological toll of fertility (abortion, miscarriage, pregnancy, PPD, etc). There is some specialization in PPD, but it is but one of many issues facing women in regards to fertility.

Counselling is probably a good idea on it's face. But I don't think we can expect, realistically, that we'll "save" a large number of women from the psychological consequences of fertility-based events. In my own case, for example, I was completely blindsided by the after effects of the abortion. One huge reason is probably the complete lack of conversation between women who have had those experiences. Grief groups exist for just about every other form of trauma, but finding women willing to talk openly about an abortion?? It's pretty rare...and I think largely because of the stigma placed upon the act based on the pro-life mindset.

If anything, I think pro-lifers need to do some serious thinking about how they approach their stance. Compassion is not acceptance, and if a pro-lifer can understand that and display compassion they might find that women fair better. Then again, I'm sure there is some faction (though admittedly small) who feel that women deserve the negative effects they experience. A sort of tit-for-tat mentality, if you will.

Click to expand...

Also a challenge with pre-abortion counseling is that, in this topical situation, those who are specializing in PASS recovery support for women are inundated with cases to the degree that these counselors themselves can be affected to where they may emphasize the negatives of abortion over the positives.

Pro-lifer stigmatizing abortion can indeed prevent women from stepping forward to form a support group for degrees of PASS .. as can pro-choice denial that serious after effects of abortion do indeed frequently occur to some degree, sometimes to a severe degree.

The challenge remains in this very politicized issue to find ways to non-politicize the associated services women need, as the topical problem is clearly very real, and politicizing both left and right interferes with the providing and receiving of needed counseling services.

joko104 said:

But who does the counseling? You? I would have no problem with a SHORT waiting period from initial appointment (unless medical needs otherwise), but no more than 3 days and NO mandated "counseling." Counseling is just another talking head spouting their values at her no matter how you size it up. We don't do "counseling." We prove shelter, peace and information of options - not just about abortion but economics, housing, education, etc. Mostly, though, peacefulness and a sense of privacy and security from ANY pressures by anyone at all.

Click to expand...

As I posted just above, there are indeed challenges with counseling providers.

But, the counseling, obviously, is needed.

Counseling is not "debate opinion".

Counseling is facts, neither pro-chioce downplayed or pro-life exaggerated, but straight forward facts.

PASS, an obviously real form of perhaps PTSD, is a fact that should always be presented or the woman is being done a great disservice by those withholding the truth of PASS.

joko104 said:

The problem is there is no such thing as "unbiased" about abortion other than maybe medical aspects of it.
And, of course, you worded it in a biased way - as it also should be "the pros and cons of carrying an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy to birth." Just what kind of counseling it is is a bias.
And how many hours do you think it would before there would pro-life protestors that the pregnant woman had to get through to attend counseling for which abortion is one of the options within that counseling - ie government funded mandated counseling no less. Pro-life and most Republican officials would go nuts! How many scandelous hidden videos of a counselor explaining a woman's right to an abortion would FOX be showing - at the government financed "counseling" sessions - which would be called government/taxpayer supported pro-abortion counseling unless the counseling was "abortion will destroy your life".

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I agree that it may be diffcult to find true counseling sans any degree of bias .. but the effort is worth it.

Though you may see my presentation itself as biased, try remember that you are pro-choice, and pro-chiocers have a tendency to downplay anything remotely resembling negative side effects of abortion.

Even your post here is loaded with debate terms and references that have you politicizing PASS already, negating the very real suffering women have sufferred post-abortion.

The challenge is indeed to step out of the debate and recognize the truth of post abortion stress syndrome.

Any ideological fear that one's debate points are at risk that causes one to recommend the truth be withheld from women about what abortion truly is and what happens post-abortion is simply doing women a huge disservice.

More dishonest crap from the anti-choice camp. This is a kissing cousin of the Quiverfull folk inventing a "syndrome" that women supposedly get after getting a tubal, and just as silly.

Studies do not show any causal link whatsoever of abortion leading to mental unwellness. They don't even show a correlation.

As choiceone said, women who have multiple abortions, especially in short spaces of time, may have some pre-existing mental disorder that is the causal factor behind both her mental disturbance, and the need for multiple abortions. Low-income status is also associated with worse outcome after abortion, mostly due to lack of resources and education which may have made the decision less informed and less well-prepared for. But, both of these things are also associated with worse mental health outcomes for women who give birth, so there is nothing unique to abortion about that.

Other women experience social backlash that may result in isolation, shaming, and even harassment and assault, and all the lovely things that does to the human mind.

But there is no correlation between abortion itself and any sort of mentally harmful syndrome. It is a stressful event for most women, but provided she has a caring network and no pre-existing mental disorders, her psychological prognosis is perfectly fine.

As a matter of fact, giving birth is more likely to result in a lapse in mental health than abortion is, mostly due to post-partum disorders. Post-partum disorders don't tend to present when a pregnancy is ended early on - and most abortions are performed in the first trimester.

Having an Abortion Doesn’t Lead to Depression | Healthland | TIME.com

That is not to say some women, even with a good support system and generally stable mental health, may not experience adverse reactions. It happens. But by the same token some women also experience joy. On average, the impact on their general mental health is minimal.

Ontologuy said:

I agree that it may be diffcult to find true counseling sans any degree of bias .. but the effort is worth it.

Though you may see my presentation itself as biased, try remember that you are pro-choice, and pro-chiocers have a tendency to downplay anything remotely resembling negative side effects of abortion.

Even your post here is loaded with debate terms and references that have you politicizing PASS already, negating the very real suffering women have sufferred post-abortion.

The challenge is indeed to step out of the debate and recognize the truth of post abortion stress syndrome.

Any ideological fear that one's debate points are at risk that causes one to recommend the truth be withheld from women about what abortion truly is and what happens post-abortion is simply doing women a huge disservice.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, lets all agree with you that there is no post-birth stress from unwanted, single mother pregancies and all agree the only stress can come from abortion. That we all agree with you that a 16 year old living on the street will have a wonderful life forever after the moment she has the baby - but she will suffer terribly the rest of her life and always suicidal if she doesn't.

There is NOTHING unbiased in your messages nor in the anti-abortion counseling you want government mandated.

What TRUTH is "withheld" from a woman who as an abortion? That she's aborting? That they tell her really they are just doing an examination?