Thread: Post Abortion Stress Syndrome

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

When did I say that? Didn't I mention just a couple posts ago that I know some anti-choice atheists?

I'm aware of what propaganda looks like and the power wording can have. I write for a living.

No pro-choice advocate would tell someone it's "not a big deal." Women generally have a sense of exactly how big a deal it is or will be for them. We let them tell us, because ultimately they are the only ones who know for sure. For some women it really isn't a big deal. For others it is.

The problem is you haven't actually presented any of those things in the slightest. You keep saying you have, but all you've done is write meaningless walls of text that either misconstrue or just entirely invent "facts."

Frankly, you're a bore to read at this point.

That has been my experience debating him too... he basically debates a strawman and doesn't acknowledges everything you say. Yep, that is just him...

Originally Posted by SheWolf

I can't say the I have witnessed such a thing... perhaps loss is common, but maybe not. It's hard to say. I have seen women and young girls get deeply depressed after a miscarriage, and I have seen them also feel relieved afterwards. A girl in my high school class said herself, "it was probably for the best" after she miscarried. People are different, and their situation probably also plays a role.

Regardless, this shouldn't be used to tell women how they feel or should feel. A woman's feelings, no matter her situation, are valid to her, and if we want to discuss this honestly, we shouldn't ignore that fact.

The existence of PASS symptoms, like the existence of PTSD symptoms, do not "tell a woman how to feel".

They help her validate what she's already feeling. Such emotional identification and validation helps people to understand what it is that they are experiencing, that they aren't really isolated and alone as they previously thought, and where to seek help for it.

As to "it was probably for the best", there simply may not be too many better ways to say "okay, I'm going to suppress/repress now".

With both pro-lifers exaggerating that "you just murdered a child" and pro-choicers minimizing "abortion's no big deal, really", women can get caught in between where they're compelled from the extremes to be silent or speak up and risk being labeled "guilty" from the pro-lifer's diatribe or labeled "inadequate" from the pro-choicer's diatribe.

So sadly women post-abortion often suffer in silence, and thus it's not uncommon to never have "witnessed such a thing".

But if you've seen young girls get deeply depressed after a miscarriage, a miscarriage that simply was not their fault, imagine how they would feel if they consciously deliberately had an abortion!

Being compelld to silence does not mean there is no suffering.

The PASS website is now telling women they no longer have to suffer in silence and that there is a recovery way out of their PASS or similar but less-strong adverse psychological effects from abortion.

This is a very good thing, considering that, among other things, one of the evidenced symptoms of PASS is suicidal ideation.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

What do you think you're debating, that PASS doesn't exist at all or that PASS is true for all women?

I'm not debating either.

I'm presenting as the website presents, that PASS can seldom occur but it does occur.

That's all with regard to your question.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

And what are you going to do and say when somebody comes in this thread and says they had an abortion and didn't have an adverse affect from it?

If they didn't suffer from PASS, then they didn't, as it's a seldom occurrence, not an all the time occurrence.

If they say they didn't suffer post-abortion feelings of loss and depression, then, since that is experienced frequently, but not all the time, then they didn't.

But if they say that they suffered no adverse psychological effects from their abortion in any way, then pregnancy being what it truly is, abortion being what it truly is, and our many psychological ways of knowing these truths being what they truly are, I will know that they have likely suppressed/repressed the adverse psychological effects from their abortion, and I may inquire as to their physical health and if they're evidencing any self-destructive behaviors.

Reality is what it is, and the reality is that there are always adverse psychological effects from abortion.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

I know a girl in the UK, she's done both... an adoption and an abortion, and she says the adoption was much harder on her emotionally. The abortion doesn't bother her in comparison... constantly wondering about her son and if he is still alive or dead, if he knows he is adopted, and why the family stopped communication with her despite agreeing to an "open adoption" keeps her awake at night. She thinks of her son every single day, but she doesn't dwell on her abortion.

It sounds like focusing on her adopted son may keep her from consciously thinking about the aborted offspring.

Keep in mind "doesn't bother her in comparison" really means that there are indeed adverse psychological effects from her abortion, and that they have likely been suppressed/repressed to where they can manifest in self-destructive behavior and/or physical maladies.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

I know another girl and she's had three abortions, no adverse affects at all.

Whatever isn't visible to you can still exist and may be visible .. to her .. or show up later in some way.

Silence is deadly in this situation.

Anyone who has had three abortions and "no adverse affects" is stating a contradiction.

Denial is also potentially deadly, as the PASS website accurately presents regarding suicidal ideation.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

...And you've done it again. You've provided no facts. A link to a website about a supposed "syndrome" that has been contradicted and rejected by actual science and by a more representative sample of women who've had abortions does not count as evidence. A member of this board having a troubling experience is also not proof that abortion is inherently harmful. At no point have I denied such cases exist, and in fact her experience aligns very closely with known risk factors for psychological distress, such as cognitive dissonance, that are not caused by the abortion itself. If anything, it demonstrates my point. People with such risk factors do have worse outcomes, sometimes regardless of what they do with the pregnancy. It is not caused by the abortion itself. And I've provided evidence for that as well. All the same, an anecdotal experience is no more significant to whether abortion generally causes psychological harm than my anecdotal experience that my body reacts violently to BC is to whether BC is generally safe. I have no "ideologically imagined" anything. I've provided concrete evidence for all of my claims. You've provided nothing.

You've presented nothing new here not alredy discussed.

Here your ideology is simply continuing to struggle against reality.

That's all.

PASS remains real, as does the frequently exprienced feelings of loss and depression, that can manifest from the adverse psychological effects of post-abortion that always occurs, pregnancy and abortion being what they truly are and mean.

Denial is simply futile.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

When did I say that? Didn't I mention just a couple posts ago that I know some anti-choice atheists? I'm aware of what propaganda looks like and the power wording can have. I write for a living. No pro-choice advocate would tell someone it's "not a big deal." Women generally have a sense of exactly how big a deal it is or will be for them. We let them tell us, because ultimately they are the only ones who know for sure. For some women it really isn't a big deal. For others it is. The problem is you haven't actually presented any of those things in the slightest. You keep saying you have, but all you've done is write meaningless walls of text that either misconstrue or just entirely invent "facts." Frankly, you're a bore to read at this point.

You don't really find me boring, but your words indicate you do find me irritaing .. at least your ideology does.

Again with the narcissistic "anti-choice" usage, though.

As to propaganda, though you may be aware of what it is, you still may not be able to help yourself, such is the power of preconceived ideology to control like a cult leader.

Your denial is futile.

The reality remains that the PASS link in the OP presents a very real syndrome and the link wouldn't exist if the associated post-abortion symptoms weren't really happening.

Women are being helped in their recovery from post-abortion adverse psychological effects.

I really have to ask why you're placing all this effort in trying to deny the obviously very real PASS problem etc. and the help women can get from this site?

What could possibly motivate you so strongly to, in effect, advocate taking this element of support away from women?

Do you really have to wait for some unconjecturably conclusive study to validate PASS when it's clear women are suffering from the adverse psychological effects of post-abortion as described by the OP linked symptoms?

Wouldn't it just be better to err on the side of caution to help these women who can identify with PASS rather than to risk that some might succumb to the suicidal ideation that can present with PASS?

Why would you not want to just err on the side of caution and just let it go?

What is it that compels you to such strong and irrational opposition here?

What??? ..

.. If not irrational ideological compulsion.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

He doesn't post facts or links... ever

False.

I post facts, and the meaningful truth they represent.

And, I post links when they're called for.

I posted the facts of PASS, the meaningul truth they represent, and the supportive link in the OP.

Care to apologize?

I mean, consdering that your post here isn't a fact itself, you might want to consider .. well, you know.

Originally Posted by SheWolf

That has been my experience debating him too... he basically debates a strawman and doesn't acknowledges everything you say. Yep, that is just him...

As I recall, like SmokeAndMirrors, you're of the pro-choice ideology too, right?

Who said anything about taking it away? They have a right to exist. I just think it ought to be known - and they acknowledge this on their own website - that there is no factual evidence supporting the existence of PASS.

Touting crap like PASS as factual creates the false notion that abortion is in and of itself psychologically harmful. That is not true. Rather, there are pre-disposing risk factors that might cause psychological harm when unwanted pregnancy occurs, often regardless of whether the woman aborts or has a child.

If even the PASS website is willing to admit the unsubstantiated nature of their claims, why aren't you?

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

No, not necessarily. Religious mandates don't stop people from fornicating. It would add incalculably to her psychological stress, though.

And if it did stop her, that doesn't mean she may not ultimately become resentful of having had a child she didn't want. That happens too.

If the religion is causing their stress then why are they coming to a church to overcome the stress? Doesnt make sense.
The reason for PASS is simple. Abortion goes against human nature. Woman have a natural instinct to take care of there young, to protect and take care of their bodies and their unborn baby until it is born, at which point the focus switches to feeding the new born. Abortion goes against this and afterwords woman often feel a sense of loss. It has nothing to do with religion or any of that. If that were a big factor they probly never would have gotten the abortion in the first place. Most of the woman in these groups (in the churches I mean) where in a place in their lives, when they got the abortion, where they either had left the church or had never been a part of it and after the abortion they returned/ found the church.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

Who said anything about taking it away? They have a right to exist. I just think it ought to be known - and they acknowledge this on their own website - that there is no factual evidence supporting the existence of PASS.

Touting crap like PASS as factual creates the false notion that abortion is in and of itself psychologically harmful. That is not true. Rather, there are pre-disposing risk factors that might cause psychological harm when unwanted pregnancy occurs, often regardless of whether the woman aborts or has a child.

If even the PASS website is willing to admit the unsubstantiated nature of their claims, why aren't you?

Have you ever seen a mother who has had a miscarriage? This is simaler. It does exist. I have seen it. It can cause distress. Just becuase you say it doesnt exist does not make it magicaly disappear.