Thread: Pregnancy before conception - What are they smoking?

Originally Posted by Jerry

The definition of 'gestational age' did not change. In determining the gestational age to certify the ZEF is under the 20 week cut-off, that age has been and is still " calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman".

See also: "Probable gestational age" means the gestational age of the unborn child at the time the abortion is planned to be performed and as determined with reasonable probability by the attending physician."

OP hasn't established where this '2-week' number even comes from.

then what was the purpose/result of the law(s)

Originally Posted by Jerry

The definition of 'gestational age' did not change. In determining the gestational age to certify the ZEF is under the 20 week cut-off, that age has been and is still " calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman".

See also: "Probable gestational age" means the gestational age of the unborn child at the time the abortion is planned to be performed and as determined with reasonable probability by the attending physician."

OP hasn't established where this '2-week' number even comes from.

In further support of my statement, please see Section 5, 1. e, which clarifies that "Probable gestational age" is the determinant to certify the ZEF is under 20 weeks. NOT the woman's last period. The woman's last period is NOT the determinant.

Originally Posted by justabubba

then what was the purpose/result of the law(s)

Judging from what is deleted and what has been added, these laws stream line medical standards and add liability for unauthorized abortions on minors.

Examples of what has been added (color and caps in original):

6. THAT ANY MEDICATION, DRUG OR OTHER SUBSTANCE USED TO INDUCE AN
14 ABORTION IS ADMINISTERED IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE PROTOCOL THAT IS AUTHORIZED
15 BY THE UNITED STATES FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION AND THAT IS OUTLINED IN THE
16 FINAL PRINTING LABELING INSTRUCTIONS FOR THAT MEDICATION, DRUG OR SUBSTANCE.

And...

L. THE CONSENT REQUIRED BY THIS SECTION MUST BE OBTAINED ON A FORM
43 PRESCRIBED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES. AT A MINIMUM, THE FORM
44 MUST:
1. LIST THE POSSIBLE MEDICAL RISKS THAT MAY OCCUR WITH ANY SURGICAL,
2 MEDICAL OR DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURE, INCLUDING THE POTENTIAL FOR INFECTION, BLOOD
3 CLOTS, HEMORRHAGE, ALLERGIC REACTIONS AND DEATH.
4 2. LIST THE POSSIBLE MEDICAL RISKS THAT MAY OCCUR WITH A SURGICAL
5 ABORTION, INCLUDING HEMORRHAGE, UTERINE PERFORATION, STERILITY, INJURY TO THE
6 BOWEL OR BLADDER, A POSSIBLE HYSTERECTOMY AS A RESULT OF A COMPLICATION OR
7 INJURY DURING THE PROCEDURE AND FAILURE TO REMOVE ALL PRODUCTS OF CONCEPTION
8 THAT MAY RESULT IN AN ADDITIONAL PROCEDURE.
9 3. LIST THE POSSIBLE MEDICAL RISKS THAT MAY OCCUR WITH A MEDICATION
10 ABORTION, INCLUDING HEMORRHAGE, INFECTION, FAILURE TO REMOVE ALL PRODUCTS OF
11 CONCEPTION THAT MAY RESULT IN AN ADDITIONAL PROCEDURE, STERILITY AND THE
12 POSSIBLE CONTINUATION OF THE PREGNANCY.
13 4. REQUIRE THE PREGNANT MINOR'S AND THE PREGNANT MINOR'S PARENT'S
14 INITIALS ON EACH PAGE OF THE FORM AND A FULL SIGNATURE ON THE FINAL PAGE OF
15 THE FORM.
16 5. INCLUDE A SPACE FOR THE NOTARY'S SIGNATURE AND SEAL ON THE FINAL
17 PAGE OF THE FORM.
18 M. THE PHYSICIAN MUST MAINTAIN THE FORM IN THE PREGNANT MINOR'S
19 RECORDS FOR SEVEN YEARS AFTER THE DATE OF THE PROCEDURE OR FIVE YEARS AFTER
20 THE DATE OF THE MINOR'S MATURITY, WHICHEVER IS LONGER.

They have nothing what-so-ever to do with claiming pregnancy begins 2 weeks before anything. I have no idea how someone could even remotly infer that.

The requirement to use 'probable gestational age' as the determinant to certify the ZEF is under 20 weeks has always been the standard and remains unchanged by this law. The definition of 'probable gestational age' and the procedure for determining such has not been changed at all by this law.

Originally Posted by Peter King

Because these pro-lifers are extremists who do not care about reality. Next there will be a law forbidding men to masturbate because it wastes precious semen and semen is 1/2 of a possible child so you are half guilty of infanticide or pre-pregnancy masturbation murder of your own future children.

An ammendement was filed that did just that....

“However, any action in which a man ejaculates or otherwise deposits semen anywhere but in a woman’s vagina shall be interpreted and construed as an action against an unborn child.”

It was tabled that same day.

The one where an Oklahoma lawmaker tries to ban “depositing semen” in places that are not a woman’s vagina | The Lost Ogle

From OP's source:

Arizona‘s Legislature yesterday afternoon passed three harsh anti-abortion[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif] bills, including one that defines pregnancy as being two weeks before conception.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]From the law itself, emphasis added:[/FONT]

"Pregnant" or "pregnancy" means a female reproductive condition of having a developing unborn child in the body and that begins with conception.

[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]The bill says the words "begins with conception", so why does the article say "2 weeks before conception"?[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]Known in some circles as the “egg drop” bill, lawmakers apparently believe they are more knowledgable than physicians at determining gestational age.

The bill does not change the definition or procedure for determining Gestational Age. The bill does not touch or otherwise address this definition at all.

The attempt to redefine pregnancy of course is to reduce the legal window of when a woman may have an abortion.

[/FONT]

The definition of pregnancy was not changed or in any way altered by this bill. The definition of 'pregnancy' is the same as it was before; previously quoted in this post. It was not changed. There was no re-defining of the term at all.

Originally Posted by tecoyah

An ammendement was filed that did just that....

“However, any action in which a man ejaculates or otherwise deposits semen anywhere but in a woman’s vagina shall be interpreted and construed as an action against an unborn child.”

It was tabled that same day.

The one where an Oklahoma lawmaker tries to ban “depositing semen” in places that are not a woman’s vagina | The Lost Ogle

I have future seeing vision

Originally Posted by Jerry

From OP's source:

[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]From the law itself, emphasis added:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]The bill says the words "begins with conception", so why does the article say "2 weeks before conception"?[/FONT]



The bill does not change the definition or procedure for determining Gestational Age. The bill does not touch or otherwise address this definition at all.



The definition of pregnancy was not changed or in any way altered by this bill. The definition of 'pregnancy' is the same as it was before; previously quoted in this post. It was not changed. There was no re-defining of the term at all.

I'm sorry for all the rogue code in this post. Apparently Chrome and vBulliten don't get along very well. My internet connection geeked out and by the time I fixed the issue the 25min forum time limit to edit was up.

Oh well, life goes on.

My point is, the law in question did not change the definition of 'pregnancy'. The definition always has and still says pregnancy "begins at conception"; not any point before conception.

What are the smoking? Tea bags. Lots and lots of tea bags. Arizona is where the tea party comes to die. I suppose Arizona must be heaven if you are single white male, who uses the words "patriot", "real patriot", "true American" several times in every conversation and the most important thing in your life is to be able to live in a "free country" while you impose your sick and restrictive religious beliefs on everyone via legislative mandates.

My understanding of the controversy surrounding this law is as follows.

Medical doctors in the US commonly calculate estimated gestational age from the first day of the last menstrual period, but they and others commonly calculate pregnancy itself from estimated time of fertilization, two weeks later, or implantation, three weeks later. Meanwhile, medical doctors can also determine a developmental gestational age by comparing the embryo or fetus to the average age of others at the same development level.

For purposes of abortion law, Roe v Wade introduced trimesters in relation to viability, but Webster was only concerned with viability. Some pro-lifers have fixated on 20 weeks as a time at which a fetus can feel pain, though medical researchers say a fetus cannot feel pain that early. More recent state laws have wished to push back the time of viability, often using the claim of possible fetal pain, and the "no abortion after 20 weeks" laws seem to be of this type. As I understand it, other state laws have banned abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy using estimated conceptional or fertilization age to determine weeks of pregnancy - that would be 22 weeks' gestational age, but the Arizona law bans abortion from 20 weeks' gestational age, two weeks earlier than the other laws.

Medical doctors have objected to this Arizona law because science only estimates calendrical gestational age and later considers developmental gestational age by sonogram and developmental comparison. They take into account the fact that women can have irregular periods, etc. The law, however, is making calendrical gestational age definitive when science can't.

Second, both medical doctors and women have objected to this law because many serious fetal deformities cannot be determined until about 20 weeks' gestational age. Arizona also has passed an anti-wrongful-birth-lawsuit law that makes it okay for a doctor to fail to provide accurate information on the health status of a fetus to a pregnant patient. Hence, people who believe it is right to abort a fetus with serious fetal deformities will not be able to know about them within the time limit for abortion within the state, and Arizona doctors need not even tell the pregnant patient, making it more difficult to seek a timely abortion in another state.

At the same time, referring to gestational age rather than fertilization, implantation, or weeks of pregnancy in deciding time limits for abortion is different in law than in science, which only uses it for purposes of correctable estimation. There is no zygote at that time, let alone an embryo, and doctors know this. The legal reference does imply that women are pregnant at the gestational age, even though women are having their periods at the time and have not released in ovulation the ovum, have not engaged in the sex act that will provide the sperm that fertilizes it. Technically, it implies that every menstruating woman is already pregnant - and women rightly suspect that this could be just the first step in intrusive government monitoring of not only pregnant women, but all fertile women. It is really Nazi-esque.

You're trying to derail.

This isn't about how doctors determine gestational age. This is about your article making a false claim. I linked to the laws in question, I compared the claims made by the article with the actual text of the law. You can read the actual text for yourself. Your source overtly lied. You don't care, you want to continue with the hit-piece, and you wonder why people like me enter your threads.

Your OP is full of ****. Your source is known to be incredibly biased and this is why. They aren't credible in the least. You used them anyway.

What the **** are YOU smoking?

****
We've already gon over the pro-choice lies about the 'wrongful death, wrongful birth' laws. If you want to rehash it, I'm game, but you'll need to bring a better source because I do my homework.