Questions for those that actually want abortion made illegal and murder

For those of you that want abortion to be illegal and want the laws to change to make it murder I have 3 questions.

1.) How do we force a million+ women a year to give birth against their will.
the dynamic of this questions is quite hard. How do we FORCE them against their will, how do we even know they are pregnant?


2.) What is the plan to deal with POTENTIALLY a million+ orphans a year?
1 million may not be fair thats why I say potential. Some mothers may change their minds, some family may take the child etc. and that fine, feel free to use a smaller number if you like. 500K+

3.) how do we investigate the "murder"?
meaning there are potentially a million miscarriages a year will they all need investigated for a possible murder?


Also save the banter from BOTH sides, im not debating if abortion is right or wrong im looking for REALITY BASED answers on the dynamics of these questions. I want to know opinions.

I wonder if it would be possible to outlaw abortion as a medical procedure without the addition of a murder charge. That would take care of the most salient of your objections.

There are lots of childless couples here in the U. S. waiting to adopt babies, hell Madonna has to go overseas to find babies to adopt, so I doubt that there would be a deluge of unwanted children that could not be placed.

I for one would be overjoyed to pay more in taxes or to donate great sums to ensure that all human life is shown the respect it deserves from conception. I would be deeply proud to be part of a nation that showed the world that we were mindful of the rights of those not yet born, and that we chose to give up selfishness and convenience to ensure a place for EVERYONE in our society.

ChuckBerry said:

I wonder if it would be possible to outlaw abortion as a medical procedure without the addition of a murder charge. That would take care of two of your objections.

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two? it will only take care of question number 3 unless Im misunderstanding.

yes I misspoke op edited

ChuckBerry said:

yes I misspoke op edited

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no biggie, im guilty of the same at times thats why I asked

ChuckBerry said:

There are lots of childless couples here in the U. S. waiting to adopt babies, hell Madonna has to go overseas to find babies to adopt, so I doubt that there would be a deluge of unwanted children that could not be placed.

I for one would be overjoyed to pay more in taxes or to donate great sums to ensure that all human life is shown the respect it deserves from conception. I would be deeply proud to be part of a nation that showed the world that we were mindful of the rights of those not yet born, and that we chose to give up selfishness and convenience to ensure a place for EVERYONE in our society.

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unless i misunderstood things Ive read foster care is already overrun and has problems with dealing with 200,000k and you think adding potentially a million a year would just right itself?

Madonna didnt HAVE to go over seas as far as i know she CHOOSE to BUT I could be wrong.

Also the last part is simply your opinion which im fine with you having but you have to understand many people that have an abortion view it the exact opposite. they feel they ARE being "mindful" to abort and its the responsible thing to do if the baby will have a bad environment. Also currently the unborn have no to very limited rights so they are being cared about.

but again this isnt about right or wrong its about real reality based solutions and I think you for a HONEST, LOGICAL responses.

Foster care currently cant handle the extra load though and theres still the flip side and why that was question number 2, how do we force women to give birth against their will to get the babies to foster care.

I myself would also be thrilled if we had the ability to care for ALL people but we dont.

A few suggestions.

It would be imperative to end the "Private Adoption Agency" business...and also outlaw adopting children outside of the US and its territories. Each state would have to incorporate an adoption agency, which would work as a nonprofit agency into its current CPS agency. The fees for adoption could easily be 75% less (or more) than is now the standards through private agencies.

Also, in order for older children placed in the system to be adopted. More than likely there would have to be some tax incentives.

For children born with special needs, both tax incentives and allowing the child to use Medicaid as the primary resource for care will be necessary.

The current cost for foster care can run between $2000 and $5000 per month per child, depending on its health status, plus all children in the system has their medical needs met through Medicaid.

Unfortunately, too many children of races other than Caucasian aren't adopted, simply because of their race. So once again there would probably have to be added tax incentives.


The above would be a start. It should start as a pilot programs for 3 to 5 years. Then work out bugs. Depending on its success. If all is going well, then reconsider abortion laws. But NEVER **** with contraceptives. That should always be a choice with women.

Removable Mind said:

A few suggestions.

It would be imperative to end the "Private Adoption Agency" business...and also outlaw adopting children outside of the US and its territories. Each state would have to incorporate an adoption agency, which would work as a nonprofit agency into its current CPS agency. The fees for adoption could easily be 75% less (or more) than is now the standards through private agencies.

Also, in order for older children placed in the system to be adopted. More than likely there would have to be some tax incentives.

For children born with special needs, both tax incentives and allowing the child to use Medicaid as the primary resource for care will be necessary.

The current cost for foster care can run between $2000 and $5000 per month per child, depending on its health status, plus all children in the system has their medical needs met through Medicaid.

Unfortunately, too many children of races other than Caucasian aren't adopted, simply because of their race. So once again there would probably have to be added tax incentives.


The above would be a start. It should start as a pilot programs for 3 to 5 years. Then work out bugs. Depending on its success. If all is going well, then reconsider abortion laws. But NEVER **** with contraceptives. That should always be a choice with women.

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I like this but im not sure about outlawing adoption outside the US that doesnt seem right at all???
I mean in theory this is good not sure about the money you claim and what the impact of the tax breaks would be BUT I do like it in theory.

but again this is only to deal with orphans, how do we force women to give birth against their will to get the kids to the new improving foster care system.

Objective-J said:

I like this but im not sure about outlawing adoption outside the US that doesnt seem right at all???
I mean in theory this is good not sure about the money you claim and what the impact of the tax breaks would be BUT I do like it in theory.

but again this is only to deal with orphans, how do we force women to give birth against their will to get the kids to the new improving foster care system.

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First of all, I would never support abortion being made illegal, or to reduce or remove the provisions of Roe v. Wade, UNLESS our entire nation is seriously willing to resolve the issues many complex issues regarding unwanted children.

My suggestions in the previous post are simply a few means to begin the process of dealing with unwanted children. And as I said...if after a trial period there is success in a pilot program...then work out the bugs, add to those processes as necessary...and it would take may a decade to then turn to dealing with the provisions in Roe v. Wade.

If we, as a nation, are going to stand up, take on the responsibility to ensure that the majority of the unwanted children born (who would otherwise be aborted) , will ultimately be cared for in the same manner as wanted children (as close as possible). Then we have to go to any length to establish an environment to facilitate the type of options that will encourage the public to be aware of ALL CHILDREN who are candidates for adoption. Not just the white, blue eyed, perfect little itty bitty baby.

Special needs children will require all to share in the cost of incentives for people to adopt such children.

I am dead serious about outlawing both private and out of country adoptions. If abortion was illegal, then we would clearly have many, many children (from new born - up) right here in the US who would need adopting, and with the right incentives...all should be. There should be no need to go outside of the US.

Removable Mind said:

First of all, I would never support abortion being made illegal, or to reduce or remove the provisions of Roe v. Wade, UNLESS our entire nation is seriously willing to resolve the issues many complex issues regarding unwanted children.

My suggestions in the previous post are simply a few means to begin the process of dealing with unwanted children. And as I said...if after a trial period there is success in a pilot program...then work out the bugs, add to those processes as necessary...and it would take may a decade to then turn to dealing with the provisions in Roe v. Wade.

If we, as a nation, are going to stand up, take on the responsibility to ensure that the majority of the unwanted children born (who would otherwise be aborted) , will ultimately be cared for in the same manner as wanted children (as close as possible). Then we have to go to any length to establish an environment to facilitate the type of options that will encourage the public to be aware of ALL CHILDREN who are candidates for adoption. Not just the white, blue eyed, perfect little itty bitty baby.

Special needs children will require all to share in the cost of incentives for people to adopt such children.

I am dead serious about outlawing both private and out of country adoptions. If abortion was illegal, then we would clearly have many, many children (from new born - up) right here in the US who would need adopting, and with the right incentives...all should be. There should be no need to go outside of the US.

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DIdnt say you did was just asking my questions to be answered.
I dont think we as a nation are willing to do that nor should we as instead of abortion but yes for the kids already needing help, yes.

I still dont agree with outlawing adoption private and out side the US though. I do agree that ending abortion cause huge problems but I dont think outlawing other things helps this overall.

Objective-J said:

DIdnt say you did was just asking my questions to be answered.
I dont think we as a nation are willing to do that nor should we as instead of abortion but yes for the kids already needing help, yes.

I still dont agree with outlawing adoption private and out side the US though. I do agree that ending abortion cause huge problems but I dont think outlawing other things helps this overall.

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Then what would be the need for people to adopt here or get children out of the system...when they don't find the most pristine child?

If abortion is illegal...considered murder...then we have to have a way to deal with all of the unwanted children. Fairly...

Removable Mind said:

Then what would be the need for people to adopt here or get children out of the system...when they don't find the most pristine child?

If abortion is illegal...considered murder...then we have to have a way to deal with all of the unwanted children. Fairly...

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I understand what you are trying to accomplish im just not ok with taking away even more freedoms. I get the primes and its logic, just dont want it.

Objective-J said:

I like this but im not sure about outlawing adoption outside the US that doesnt seem right at all???
I mean in theory this is good not sure about the money you claim and what the impact of the tax breaks would be BUT I do like it in theory.

but again this is only to deal with orphans, how do we force women to give birth against their will to get the kids to the new improving foster care system.

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You can't force them - they'll figure out a way to end it if they truly don't want ot be pregnant and have a child. The only way to force them is to prove that they're a danger to their unborn and toss them in jail under strict surveilance. I hardly see that happening in mass number.

Complet silence about a pregnancy, starvation, medications, suicide and murder+suicide, increased domestic abuse, increased cases where the man leaves the woman because she's suddenly pregnant, increased sale and consumption of certain foods that can induce (etc), leaving the country to have abortions - aside back alley abortions there will be an increase in all these things. Not to mention children born into families who can't care for them so an increase of child neglect, abuse and even infanticide will increase.

I don't know about you - but if that is the going to be the outcome: then it makes little sense to make it illegal.

Not wanting your newly conceived child is a normal part of human-nature. Every culture throughout history has had to deal with it.

They're trying to criminalize a purely natural reponse to an unwanted change in one's physical and psychological condition. . . and even just someone admittedly not being able to care for another. How many is too many? I see it all the time: if you have a lot of kids - espcially if you're on welfare - people hate you. I can't tell who's hated more: the woman who's pro-choice or the woman who has 8 kids.

Pregnancy is a natural state: but somewhere mother nature completely failed to adjust us to the many changes that we'll undergo throughout the process. But also: our society has turned having children into a strong negative - the more you have the more problems you will have. . . and this isn't the fault of any single individual but yet individuals will suffer for it none the less.

Aunt Spiker said:

You can't force them - they'll figure out a way to end it if they truly don't want ot be pregnant and have a child. The only way to force them is to prove that they're a danger to their unborn and toss them in jail under strict surveilance. I hardly see that happening in mass number.

Complet silence about a pregnancy, starvation, medications, suicide and murder+suicide, increased domestic abuse, increased cases where the man leaves the woman because she's suddenly pregnant, increased sale and consumption of certain foods that can induce (etc), leaving the country to have abortions - aside back alley abortions there will be an increase in all these things.

Not wanting your newly conceived child is a normal part of human-nature. Every culture throughout history has had to deal with it.

They're trying to criminalize a purely natural reponse to an unwanted change in one's physical and psychological condition.

Pregnancy is a natural state: but somewhere mother nature completely failed to adjust us to the many changes that we'll undergo throughout the process.

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I agree theres no reality way to do it specially since we have a constitution in this country. No reality way to even know if a person is pregnant if they dont come forward with this info.

Nice thread. A few things come to my mind as I read along: there will always be that percentage of women who just don't want to be pregnant; what do we do about the back-alley deals that will surely develope again which created the need for legal abortions to begin with? Secondly, we have such a battle of bugetary spending in this nation as it is that the idea that Republican government is going to expand social programs is just absurd: the foster system is such a mess right now because nobody cares; and that's the only reason[/u] - trust me.

With respect to movie stars going overseas for children it's a simple one in my mind: they don't have to put up with American "birth parents" trying to get their names in the paper and suing for anything they can get based on: "I didn't know what I was doing" etc.

Go to Korea, find a nice beautiful child; "sign here", pay the fee -- fly home: 10,000 miles away -- all done.

I think that the anti-abortion thing in this country is a simple clash with the first amendment: a religious declarative with no viable or demonstrative solution.

Objective-J said:

For those of you that want abortion to be illegal and want the laws to change to make it murder I have 3 questions.

1.) How do we force a million+ women a year to give birth against their will.
the dynamic of this questions is quite hard. How do we FORCE them against their will, how do we even know they are pregnant?

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They got pregnant out of their own free will.So the idea that they are giving birth against their will is idiotic.

2.) What is the plan to deal with POTENTIALLY a million+ orphans a year?
1 million may not be fair thats why I say potential. Some mothers may change their minds, some family may take the child etc. and that fine, feel free to use a smaller number if you like. 500K+

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With abortion illegal most women will start to exercise common sense and take steps to avoid getting pregnant. The reason these abortionist don't is because they have have the safety net of an abortion to bail them out of the consequences of their actions. So the idea that there will be millions of babies a year put into orphanages is also idiotic and nothing more than fear mongering by the pro-abortion crowd.

3.) how do we investigate the "murder"?
meaning there are potentially a million miscarriages a year will they all need investigated for a possible murder?


Also save the banter from BOTH sides, im not debating if abortion is right or wrong im looking for REALITY BASED answers on the dynamics of these questions. I want to know opinions.

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An abortionist trying to make it seem that banning abortion would be complicated and a whole bunch of other abortionists having a circle jerk.I can't say that I am surprised. If abortion became illegal then that would be would mean planned parenthood and every other abortion provider is shut down. Just like you can send in undercover agents to buy illegal drugs you can do the same with those suspected of providing abortions.If an abortion provider is caught you treat them the same you would a murderer for hire.You would also set up bogus abortion clinics to catch those trying to get abortions. When these women are cuaght you treat them no different than you would treat someone who solicited murder for hire. You don't have to investigate every woman who has a miscarriage but in some event there is evidence like a video evidence then you treat her no different than someone who aided in a murder and solicited a murderer for hire.

jamesrage said:

They got pregnant out of their own free will.So the idea that they are giving birth against their will is idiotic.

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The women and girls who were raped did not get pregnant of their free will. Moreover, since consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy, as the use of contraception objectively proves, your statement does not make sense even for the vast majority of women, who do use contraception. Existing methods of contraception are not 100% effective, but because they are very effective, their use presumably excuses the vast majority of women from your claim.

jamesrage said:

With abortion illegal most women will start to exercise common sense and take steps to avoid getting pregnant. The reason these abortionist don't is because they have have the safety net of an abortion to bail them out of the consequences of their actions. So the idea that there will be millions of babies a year put into orphanages is also idiotic and nothing more than fear mongering by the pro-abortion crowd.

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They already take steps to avoid getting pregnant. You over-estimate the effectiveness of existing contraception methods.

jamesrage said:

An abortionist trying to make it seem that banning abortion would be complicated and a whole bunch of other abortionists having a circle jerk.I can't say that I am surprised. If abortion became illegal then that would be would mean planned parenthood and every other abortion provider is shut down. Just like you can send in undercover agents to buy illegal drugs you can do the same with those suspected of providing abortions.If an abortion provider is caught you treat them the same you would a murderer for hire.You would also set up bogus abortion clinics to catch those trying to get abortions. When these women are cuaght you treat them no different than you would treat someone who solicited murder for hire. You don't have to investigate every woman who has a miscarriage but in some event there is evidence like a video evidence then you treat her no different than someone who aided in a murder and solicited a murderer for hire.

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Women would use existing birth control pills as morning after pills, given that how to use every brand this way is all over the web and common knowledge. They would go to Canada or get in contact with Women on Waves. They would study chemistry in college and learn how to make their own abortion pills. They would do a hundred different things to end pregnancy, including trip themselves at the top of a set of stairs. Some rape victims among them would simply commit suicide immediately rather than waiting until they had an abortion to feel clean when they did it. And some women, like me, would ask whether having sex with men is worth it, and could conclude that women do not have natural sexual desire but have been brainwashed to want to have sex and could, if they wished, just stop permanently. Then, men will have only anti-choice women to make babies, so those women will give birth too many times and sicken and die by, perhaps, age of forty. There is always a way for a woman to refuse to have children.

jamesrage said:

They got pregnant out of their own free will.So the idea that they are giving birth against their will is idiotic. .

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this couldnt be more dishonest LMAO I asked for real, honest and realistic answers I guess you cant do that

jamesrage said:

With abortion illegal most women will start to exercise common sense and take steps to avoid getting pregnant. The reason these abortionist don't is because they have have the safety net of an abortion to bail them out of the consequences of their actions. So the idea that there will be millions of babies a year put into orphanages is also idiotic and nothing more than fear mongering by the pro-abortion crowd.

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another dishonest answer, wow guess asking for realistic answers and civility is to much to ask of you

jamesrage said:

An abortionist trying to make it seem that banning abortion would be complicated and a whole bunch of other abortionists having a circle jerk.I can't say that I am surprised. If abortion became illegal then that would be would mean planned parenthood and every other abortion provider is shut down. Just like you can send in undercover agents to buy illegal drugs you can do the same with those suspected of providing abortions.If an abortion provider is caught you treat them the same you would a murderer for hire.You would also set up bogus abortion clinics to catch those trying to get abortions. When these women are cuaght you treat them no different than you would treat someone who solicited murder for hire. You don't have to investigate every woman who has a miscarriage but in some event there is evidence like a video evidence then you treat her no different than someone who aided in a murder and solicited a murderer for hire.

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thanks for the hyperbole and illogical bias rants, ill move on to other objective posters. LMAO

Objective-J said:

For those of you that want abortion to be illegal and want the laws to change to make it murder I have 3 questions.

1.) How do we force a million+ women a year to give birth against their will.
the dynamic of this questions is quite hard. How do we FORCE them against their will, how do we even know they are pregnant?

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The same way we force people not to kill you in road rage.

Objective-J said:

2.) What is the plan to deal with POTENTIALLY a million+ orphans a year?

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People rais their own children. Short of that, folks give the children up for adoption. There is a surplus of people waiting to adopt.

Objective-J said:

3.) how do we investigate the "murder"?

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The same way other murders are investigated.

Objective-J said:

meaning there are potentially a million miscarriages a year will they all need investigated for a possible murder?

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Yup.

Objective-J said:

Also save the banter from BOTH sides, im not debating if abortion is right or wrong im looking for REALITY BASED answers on the dynamics of these questions. I want to know opinions.

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Look it's this easy: If the unborn are considered "people" no different than any born person, then the answers to all of your questions are necessarily identical as though you ask that same question about a born person. How murder is investigated, how do we stop people from killing children, etc, all answers are identical.

Jerry said:

The same way we force people not to kill you in road rage.



People rais their own children. Short of that, folks give the children up for adoption. There is a surplus of people waiting to adopt.



The same way other murders are investigated.



Yup.



Look it's this easy: If the unborn are considered "people" no different than any born person, then the answers to all of your questions are necessarily identical as though you ask that same question about a born person. How murder is investigated, how do we stop people from killing children, etc, all answers are identical.

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Hi Jerry!

please reread the OP

LOGICAL REALITY BASED ANSWERS

Objective-J said:

Hi Jerry!

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Hey :2wave:

please reread the OP

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I did that before I responded

Objective-J said:

LOGICAL REALITY BASED ANSWERS

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That's what I posted eace

Look at the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, which is a federal law establishing that any assault against the unborn will be charged with the equivalent crime as-tho the assault were against the woman herself. If we close the abortion loophole in that law by executing the RvW 9a clause, then crimes against the unborn and the born are indistinguishable.

Jerry said:

Hey :2wave:



I did that before I responded



That's what I posted eace

Look at the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, which is a federal law establishing that any assault against the unborn will be charged with the equivalent crime as-tho the assault were against the woman herself. If we close the abortion loophole in that law by executing the RvW 9a clause, then crimes against the unborn and the born are indistinguishable.

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You know im centrist77 right? I wont play with you, but I do like you and think you are funny at times. If you want to have an honest discussion I will but with your history my apologies if I dont believe you

Ill be back on later tonight or maybe tomorrow. Later

You won't ever get rid of abortion.
The system for care for all the unwanted children would be such a drain it would be impossible to keep up with. There are not enough adoptive parents to handle the number of children.
It would be impossible to investigate this as murder the law enforcement agencies would be up to their eyeballs in investigations.
To much law is now based on Roe V Wade and no court will overturn the ruling. They may amend it to say that abortion is legal in the first trimester but they certainly can't erase it from the books.

Objective-J said:

You know im centrist77 right? I wont play with you, but I do like you and think you are funny at times. If you want to have an honest discussion I will but with your history my apologies if I dont believe you

Ill be back on later tonight or maybe tomorrow. Later

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No one has to *believe* anything, you can all read these laws for yourselves:

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

`(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child's mother.

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ROE v. WADE, Section 9a:"A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses , [410 U.S. 113, 157] for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. 51 On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment ."

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That remains to be seen.

Jerry said:

No one has to *believe* anything, you can all read these laws for yourselves:

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

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Who said I didnt believe theres a law that is in place for a non related issue that you want changed to make it related LMAO big whoop:shrug:

These still dont answer the questions in reality, reality based is what im lookin for.
I can make it murder tomorrow and im looking on how you REALLY enforce it? How do you force the women to give birth against there will, hell how do you even know they are pregnant if they dont want you to.

SOrry in reality its not so simple as, make it a law.