Charged with Feticide - just or unjust? (1 Viewer)

bowerbird · Oct 3, 2011

This case is disturbing on so many levels and sets a very dangerous precedent

On December 23, 2010, Bei Bei Shuai, a 34 year old pregnant woman who was suffering from depression, attempted suicide, which in Indiana is not a crime. Friends found her in time and persuaded her to go to the hospital and get help. Six days later, the baby was delivered, prematurely, by cesarean section and four days after that the newborn girl died. On March 14, 2011, the State of Indiana arrested Shuai, jailed her, and charged her with murder and attempted feticide.
This case raises serious concerns about violations of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Had Shuai not been pregnant, she would not have been charged with any crime. Do pregnant women have the same rights as non-pregnant women?
If this case is allowed to stand, any pregnant woman who puts her own life or heath at risk, can be criminally prosecuted. A pregnant woman with a pre-existing medical condition, that poses a threat to her health during pregnancy, could be charged with murder if she miscarries or attempted feticide if she carries to term. A pregnant woman with a dangerous job also subjects her fetus to the same danger she faces.

State of Indiana v. Bei Bei Shuai « JONATHAN TURLEY

Bob Blaylock · Oct 4, 2011

The article asks, “Do pregnant women have the same rights as non-pregnant women?” I think this question misses a vital point.

Parent have responsibilities that non-parents do not.

As a result of this woman's actions, a precious, innocent child, is now dead, who would otherwise be alive. She is responsible for this.

molten_dragon · Oct 4, 2011

In this case I would say it's unjust. Her intention was not to kill the child inside her. She tried to commit suicide, which speaks to the fact that she wasn't thinking rationally. She needs psychiatric help, not a prison sentence.

nonpareil · Oct 4, 2011

bowerbird said:
This case is disturbing on so many levels and sets a very dangerous precedent

State of Indiana v. Bei Bei Shuai « JONATHAN TURLEY

If one accept that a fetus is a person, then it makes sense to charge the women with attempted murder, manslaughter, or at the least parental negligence. It makes so sense to make exception for rape, incest, or birth defects. Even in cases of potential problem like pre-eclampsia or placenta previa, it's not always certain that the women can kill a person when it's not 100% certain that her life will be at risk. Then women are subjected to their biology all over again - protect yourself from pregnancy at all cost or good luck to you.

Aunt Spiker · Oct 4, 2011

bowerbird said:
This case is disturbing on so many levels and sets a very dangerous precedent

State of Indiana v. Bei Bei Shuai « JONATHAN TURLEY

In some places they already have 'pregnant danger' on the books - and women have already served time for killing their unborn with overdoses and drug use.

No - I don't think she should be tried and tossed in jail. She needs to be committed to an institution in regard to her attempt to commit suicide and cared for as any other suicidal individual would be.

They're just proving to her that what she was trying to do with suicide was the right thing: that she is worthless as a living human being and would be better off dead and any time she spends alive is a waste of everything.

I guess they don't care about her at all.

She'll - no doubt - be trying and likely succeeding in the future. So much for intervention. They could have offered help that would have really set her on the right path and maybe in the future she could have had another child when she was in a solid relationship and possibly have been a wonderful mother. But now her living a nice and normal post-depression life where she values herself as a person is out of the question.

On another note: I don't think suicidal individuals are legally sane which is obvious with the normal response of an attempted suicide by putting them in an institutional wing of a hospital for care and monitoring 24/7

bowerbird · Oct 4, 2011

Bob Blaylock said:
The article asks, “Do pregnant women have the same rights as non-pregnant women?” I think this question misses a vital point.

Parent have responsibilities that non-parents do not.

As a result of this woman's actions, a precious, innocent child, is now dead, who would otherwise be alive. She is responsible for this.

And what signal does this send to other women at risk? Are they likely to seek ante natal care for depression in case they are charged with some heinous crime?

Bob Blaylock · Oct 4, 2011

bowerbird said:
And what signal does this send to other women at risk? Are they likely to seek ante natal care for depression in case they are charged with some heinous crime?

We're discussing a specific case where a woman committed an act that she expected and intended to result in her own death along with the death of her child—a classic attempted murder/suicide. The “suicide” portion failed, but the “murder” part succeeded.

This isn't about a woman simply failing to care for her child in a manner that others might think she should; this is a case of intentionally killing her child.

I don't think that anything about how she is treated ought to be regarded as the same as how a woman is treated who did not intentionally kill or attempt to kill her own child.

Temporal · Oct 4, 2011

Prosecuting the woman isn't going to change anything. She is mentally ill and needs help.

The baby was born alive. That it died days later could be chalked up to nature. Can they prove beyond a doubt that the suicide attempt resulted in premature delivery and death of the infant? If they can't, then they should leave this poor woman alone.

Thunder · Oct 4, 2011

having suicide not be illegal but charging the woman for the death of her ZEF, shows the faulty priorities this state has for life.

Ikari · Oct 4, 2011

Thunder said:
having suicide not be illegal but charging the woman for the death of her ZEF, shows the faulty priorities this state has for life.

Does it? My question is that if someone assaulted her and caused the death of the child, would they be similarly charged with feticide (is this an actual legal term?)? Most likely yes, in which case I can see this as equal application of the law. They can't charge her with the harm she tried to do to herself since it's not illegal to harm yourself. But they can charge her with the harm she brought her child.

Alyssa · Oct 4, 2011

Bob Blaylock said:
The article asks, “Do pregnant women have the same rights as non-pregnant women?” I think this question misses a vital point.

Parent have responsibilities that non-parents do not.

As a result of this woman's actions, a precious, innocent child, is now dead, who would otherwise be alive. She is responsible for this.

Suicidal people are not rational, so holding her responsible for those actions, and punishing her accomplishes nothing.

Bob Blaylock said:
We're discussing a specific case where a woman committed an act that she expected and intended to result in her own death along with the death of her child—a classic attempted murder/suicide. The “suicide” portion failed, but the “murder” part succeeded.

This isn't about a woman simply failing to care for her child in a manner that others might think she should; this is a case of intentionally killing her child.

I don't think that anything about how she is treated ought to be regarded as the same as how a woman is treated who did not intentionally kill or attempt to kill her own child.

She attempted to take her own life; so if she didn't value her own life, how can she be expected to value a ZEF? Think about it.

Temporal · Oct 4, 2011

Ikari said:
Does it? My question is that if someone assaulted her and caused the death of the child, would they be similarly charged with feticide (is this an actual legal term?)? Most likely yes, in which case I can see this as equal application of the law. They can't charge her with the harm she tried to do to herself since it's not illegal to harm yourself. But they can charge her with the harm she brought her child.

What if they assaulted her while she was on the way to an abortion clinic to end her pregnancy?

Context matters. If she was committing suicide then she was sending a clear message that she didn't care about her pregnancy. Whatever way you examine this situation, the woman should not be held liable for a ZEF. Her own life is more important, and since I support the right to end one's life, she should be in the clear.

Arcana XV · Oct 4, 2011

Oh, this is a tricky one. She was 33 weeks pregnant. The fetus was well past viability and most babies born at this point experience very minor complications at birth. The rat poison the mother ingested caused the baby's brain to bleed and according to investigators that's why she died. Now I'm sure the mother was quite distraught and in a very bad place at the time, but no one will make me swallow that she didn't mean to harm the child. Unless she's a complete idiot on top of being depressed and suicidal, she knew that her child would die with her. But hey, whatever, maybe she really didn't mean to hurt the kid or didn't even think about it in her altered mental state. I'm not comfortable with charging a suicidal, mentally ill person with murder, but I'm equally uncomfortable with the idea that she caused her child to die and there are no legal consequences. Maybe involuntary manslaughter? I don't know. This case is totally ****ed up.

lovetosing4678 · Oct 4, 2011

Odd question... Lets say she went to a hospital, told them she wanted to commit suicide so please induce pregnancy so the child can live but I can die. Would you let her do it? What would you say in that situation?

Alyssa · Oct 4, 2011

lovetosing4678 said:
Odd question... Lets say she went to a hospital, told them she wanted to commit suicide so please induce pregnancy so the child can live but I can die. Would you let her do it? What would you say in that situation?

I would let her do that, but the hospital would have her committed against her will.

TacticalEvilDan · Oct 4, 2011

Arcana XV said:
Oh, this is a tricky one. She was 33 weeks pregnant. The fetus was well past viability and most babies born at this point experience very minor complications at birth. The rat poison the mother ingested caused the baby's brain to bleed and according to investigators that's why she died. Now I'm sure the mother was quite distraught and in a very bad place at the time, but no one will make me swallow that she didn't mean to harm the child. Unless she's a complete idiot on top of being depressed and suicidal, she knew that her child would die with her. But hey, whatever, maybe she really didn't mean to hurt the kid or didn't even think about it in her altered mental state. I'm not comfortable with charging a suicidal, mentally ill person with murder, but I'm equally uncomfortable with the idea that she caused her child to die and there are no legal consequences. Maybe involuntary manslaughter? I don't know. This case is totally ****ed up.

I'm with you on this one.

I did some research. Involuntary manslaughter isn't an option because that's what you get when you kill someone in the process of comiting certain crimes -- and attempting suicide is not a crime there.

Voluntary manslaughter is, however, a possibility. That's killing another human or a viable fetus while in "sudden heat," which between my reading and my layman's brain I interpret to essentially be the heat of passion.

If the case isn't as solid as the DA would like, or if public opinion leans against a murder prosecution, that's probably what she'll be plead down to. As for how much time that would mean, it depends on whether or not the prosecution is able to argue that the mother, by ingesting the rat poison, made of that poison a deadly weapon. I'd have a hard time seeing that stand up. If it doesn't, it's a class B felony (minimum of 6 years); if it does, it's a class A felony (minimum of 20 years).

Indiana Code 35-50-2 (and a few other portions of same, I had to flip around a bit)

Temporal · Oct 4, 2011

Arcana XV said:
Oh, this is a tricky one. She was 33 weeks pregnant. The fetus was well past viability and most babies born at this point experience very minor complications at birth. The rat poison the mother ingested caused the baby's brain to bleed and according to investigators that's why she died. Now I'm sure the mother was quite distraught and in a very bad place at the time, but no one will make me swallow that she didn't mean to harm the child. Unless she's a complete idiot on top of being depressed and suicidal, she knew that her child would die with her. But hey, whatever, maybe she really didn't mean to hurt the kid or didn't even think about it in her altered mental state. I'm not comfortable with charging a suicidal, mentally ill person with murder, but I'm equally uncomfortable with the idea that she caused her child to die and there are no legal consequences. Maybe involuntary manslaughter? I don't know. This case is totally ****ed up.

I agree that the term of the pregnancy complicates matters. But it's also contradictory that it's not illegal for her to kill herself but she could be charged with killing an unborn fetus. It would indirectly imply that her life is less valuable than that of the fetus under law - which is really what the pro-life argument comes down to anyway. Are fetuses people or not? Do they have citizenship or not? Does one have to be born to be murdered?

If the woman succeeded, there would be nothing to talk about here... but since she survived, it now turns to potential punishment. It seems supremely unproductive to me. Tragic, but unproductive.

It will probably come down to whether or not she is deemed mentally competent to face trial. I think the whole thing should be tossed out due to the greater implications.

Aunt Spiker · Oct 4, 2011

evanescence said:
I would let her do that, but the hospital would have her committed against her will.

Ironic: if she didn't try to kill herself they'd give her help.

But since she tried to kill herself they won't give her help.

Bob Blaylock · Oct 5, 2011

Thunder said:
having suicide not be illegal but charging the woman for the death of her ZEF, shows the faulty priorities this state has for life.

I would have to say that anyone who thinks that it is more acceptable for a person to kill another person than for a person to kill himself has screwed up priorities for life.

Bob Blaylock · Oct 5, 2011

Temporal said:
Context matters. If she was committing suicide then she was sending a clear message that she didn't care about her pregnancy. Whatever way you examine this situation, the woman should not be held liable for a ZEF. Her own life is more important, and since I support the right to end one's life, she should be in the clear.

She didn't just end her own life,. In fact, she failed in her attempt to do that. She did, however, intend to, and succeed at ending the life of another human being—her own child. She is responsible for this.

By your logic, anyone who attempts to commit suicide, and fails, cannot be held responsible to whatever harm that person causes to others in the course of the attempted suicide. I reject this premise entirely.

This was an attempted murder/suicide, in which the perpetrator survived. She should be held fully responsible for the consequences of her actions.

Jerry · Oct 5, 2011

bowerbird said:
And what signal does this send to other women at risk? Are they likely to seek ante natal care for depression in case they are charged with some heinous crime?

This isn't a rail-road... there are no 'signals' to be sent.

Jerry · Oct 5, 2011

Bob Blaylock said:
I would have to say that anyone who thinks that it is more acceptable for a person to kill another person than for a person to kill himself has screwed up priorities for life.

It's ok to kill someone when they are a threat to your life.

So, if you try to kill yourself, you are a threat to your life, and it's ok to kill yourself.....in self-defenseless.

Jerry · Oct 5, 2011

lovetosing4678 said:
Odd question... Lets say she went to a hospital, told them she wanted to commit suicide so please induce pregnancy so the child can live but I can die. Would you let her do it? What would you say in that situation?

Well I couldn't stop her so it's not a matter of me, Joe Anon from teh interwebs, to "let" her.

And that's all I would have to say about that situation

Jerry · Oct 5, 2011

molten_dragon said:
In this case I would say it's unjust. Her intention was not to kill the child inside her. She tried to commit suicide, which speaks to the fact that she wasn't thinking rationally. She needs psychiatric help, not a prison sentence.

Well she's a nut-case we agree on that much.

bowerbird · Oct 5, 2011

Bob Blaylock said:
She didn't just end her own life,. In fact, she failed in her attempt to do that. She did, however, intend to, and succeed at ending the life of another human being—her own child. She is responsible for this.

By your logic, anyone who attempts to commit suicide, and fails, cannot be held responsible to whatever harm that person causes to others in the course of the attempted suicide. I reject this premise entirely.

This was an attempted murder/suicide, in which the perpetrator survived. She should be held fully responsible for the consequences of her actions.

So obviously you do not agree that there should ever be such a thing as an "insanity plea"

It is also amazing that not one poster so far has discussed the very real and well known phenomena of "Peri-natal depression" also known as "post natal depression

| Free Online Medical Education, CPD and News for Australian Health Professionals. | Free Online Medical Education, CPD and News for Australian Health Professionals.

Postnatal depression is better termed perinatal depression as it often begins antenatally, although it may not be recognised until the postnatal period. It is a common disorder, with milder adjustment problems and anxiety affecting some 30% of women while about 15% of women have more significant mood disorders, often with anxiety. Women are reluctant to seek help, but early identification and intervention are essential to minimise the long-term complications. These include suicide, chronic depression and marital difficulties, and for the child, cognitive, emotional and behavioural problems.

Treatment of perinatal depression - Australian Prescriber

Charged with Feticide - just or unjust? (1 Viewer)

bowerbird

Bob Blaylock

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molten_dragon

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Aunt Spiker

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Alyssa

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TacticalEvilDan

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