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Does abortion kill people?

star2589 said:
but there has to be a 3rd element, your moral beliefs. science can tell you whether your moral beliefs are applicable to a situation, such as abortion. but science cannot tell you what your moral beliefs are.
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Maybe there is, but it doesn't change the fact that science and biology form the basis for my reasons to oppose abortion.

star2589 said:
I didnt say you were doing so based on your religion or what the bible says.
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And I never said you did, I simply rewrote my comment that you where discussing and highlighted the critical words that you appeared to ignore.
 
Iriemon said:
No? What is it to be interpreted as?
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Well, it is to be interpreted as an early term expression of joy by a foetus.
 
jimmyjack said:
Well, it is to be interpreted as an early term expression of joy by a foetus.
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Ahh those good old fetus days, eh? Damn I miss them.

I don't see that as a particularly strong indication of a Biblical view equating fetuses to persons.
 
Iriemon said:
Ahh those good old fetus days, eh? Damn I miss them.

I don't see that as a particularly strong indication of a Biblical view equating fetuses to persons.
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Too bad.

I guess you believe the expression of joy is something non-persons do all the time.
 
jimmyjack said:
Too bad.

I guess you believe the expression of joy is something non-persons do all the time.
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The actually don't. I told several funny jokes when my wife was pregnant and not once did the fetus jump for joy. It could be my jokes are not that funny.

If we accept your interpretation as true and if we accept the Bible of literally accurate, it still doesn't tell us much about whether fetus are viewed as persons. John was a special character in the Bible. If God wanted him to jump for joy for some weird reason, that is God acting. It doesn't tell us that God views every fetus as equivalent to person. God certainly doesn't view all persons equivalently, and has show no problem causing the slaughter of people and children and babies and even pregnant women if it suits His purpose.
 
Iriemon said:
The actually don't. I told several funny jokes when my wife was pregnant and not once did the fetus jump for joy. It could be my jokes are not that funny.
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Because laughter is the consequence of humour, not joy. Besides you have to be funny to make people laugh.

Iriemon said:
If we accept your interpretation as true and if we accept the Bible of literally accurate, it still doesn't tell us much about whether fetus are viewed as persons.
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Well it does actually; otherwise there is little point it being in the bible.

Iriemon said:
John was a special character in the Bible. If God wanted him to jump for joy for some weird reason, that is God acting. It doesn't tell us that God views every fetus as equivalent to person. God certainly doesn't view all persons equivalently, and has show no problem causing the slaughter of people and children and babies and even pregnant women if it suits His purpose.
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It was not for a weird reason, it was recorded so that you know how god perceives the foetus.
 
jimmyjack said:
Because laughter is the consequence of humour, not joy. Besides you have to be funny to make people laugh.
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Alright. If I am funny and make people laugh, but the fetus in my wife's womb doesn't laugh, what does that tell you?

It was not for a weird reason, it was recorded so that you know how god perceives the foetus.
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That interpretation I'll take issue with. The much more logical interpretation of that passage is to show that the significance of the baby Mary was carrying.

If God wanted us to have a certain perception of the fetus as a person, and not to have abortions, God could very easily have made a commandment "Tho shalt not cause the early termination of a pregnancy" and provided for the punishment of death if you did. The fact that God chose not to do that to me is a strong indication that He doesn't consider a fetus a person, or intended to prohibit an abortion.
 
Iriemon said:
If God wanted us to have a certain perception of the fetus as a person, and not to have abortions, God could very easily have made a commandment "Tho shalt not cause the early termination of a pregnancy" and provided for the punishment of death if you did. The fact that God chose not to do that to me is a strong indication that He doesn't consider a fetus a person, or intended to prohibit an abortion.
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I don't know....I think, "Thou shall not kill" about covers it. :rofl
 
Iriemon said:
Alright. If I am funny and make people laugh, but the fetus in my wife's womb doesn't laugh, what does that tell you?
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It tells me your foetus does not pretend to laugh.

Iriemon said:
That interpretation I'll take issue with. The much more logical interpretation of that passage is to show that the significance of the baby Mary was carrying.
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No, the significance has been demonstrated numerous times on many levels, the most significant was the visit by the angel Gabriel.

Iriemon said:
If God wanted us to have a certain perception of the fetus as a person, and not to have abortions, God could very easily have made a commandment "Tho shalt not cause the early termination of a pregnancy" and provided for the punishment of death if you did. The fact that God chose not to do that to me is a strong indication that He doesn't consider a fetus a person, or intended to prohibit an abortion.
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He did, thou shall not kill.
 
talloulou said:
I don't know....I think, "Thou shall not kill" about covers it. :rofl
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Overbroad.
 
Since the penalty for killing a person is death, and killing a fetus is a fine, the Bible must not consider killing a fetus the same as killing a person.
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It leaves the punishment decission up to the male head of household (who back in those days had a lot of power under the law, it does not sau it is "fine".



And I ask you again since you are using the Bible here as your source of rebuttle can we expect you to base your opinion here and in other matters on the Biblical teachings?
 
Iriemon said:
Fair enough. Then what the Bible says about it is irrelevant to you.
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But relevent to you since you are the one using it as your reference for rebuttle. So are you going to be consistent and frame all your arguements on the teachings in the Bible?
 
star2589 said:
science and biology makes absolutly no moral arguments on any topic. it mearly discribes how things work, not whether things are right or wrong. science can tell you if something is alive, but it cannot tell you whether killing it is wrong.
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Do you believe it morally wrong to kill innocent human beings? Yes or no?


Science and biology tell me a fetus is an innocent human being unless that fetus is threatening the life of the mother in which case we have a right to defend ourselves and protect our own life.
 
No, I do not believe that it does. Fetuses are human beings, but they're not people.

"People" implies social and legal recognition, or in ideal terms moral recognition. They are currently in a very vague position socially and legally, and I do not believe that they warrant any moral protection.
 
Stinger said:
Do you believe it morally wrong to kill innocent human beings? Yes or no?
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yes.

Stinger said:
Science and biology tell me a fetus is an innocent human being unless that fetus is threatening the life of the mother in which case we have a right to defend ourselves and protect our own life.
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science and biology say no such thing. "human being" and "innocent" are not scientific terms.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
No, I do not believe that it does. Fetuses are human beings, but they're not people.

"People" implies social and legal recognition, or in ideal terms moral recognition. They are currently in a very vague position socially and legally, and I do not believe that they warrant any moral protection.
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What proof do you have that foetuses are not people?
 
jimmyjack said:
What proof do you have that foetuses are not people?
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People are individuals functioning collectively(in some fashion) in a society, last I heard fetuses are not.
Do you believe it morally wrong to kill innocent human beings? Yes or no?
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No, killing a human is not much different than squashing an ant with your toe. Most people do not have second thoughts about killing them.
 
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Guys whether termination kills people is neither here nor there perhaps the title of the thread should have been do abortions kill humans.

Personhood is just a stage of development but you are human from conception and to take the life of another human is unforgivable and a crime against humanity.

But to answer Jimmyjacks question does abortion kill people well it does by pro choices very own criteria.

http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/bldeaths.htm
 
Stinger said:
Do you believe it morally wrong to kill innocent human beings? Yes or no?



Science and biology tell me a fetus is an innocent human being unless that fetus is threatening the life of the mother in which case we have a right to defend ourselves and protect our own life.
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Yes...I think it Ethically Distastful to Kill an Innocent Human Being

As you feel a Fetus is a Human Being, I would recommend against having an abortion....If you ever get pregnant.
 
Comrade Brian said:
People are individuals functioning collectively(in some fashion) in a society, last I heard fetuses are not.
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How is a foetus not an individual? How is a foetus not functioning?
 
jimmyjack said:
What proof do you have that foetuses are not people?
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What proof do you have that they are? All you got is proof that they're human.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
No, I do not believe that it does. Fetuses are human beings, but they're not people.
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So it is OK to indiscrimately kill human beings.

"People" implies social and legal recognition, or in ideal terms moral recognition. They are currently in a very vague position socially and legally, and I do not believe that they warrant any moral protection.
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Isn't that the same rationale that some societies have used to kill other socieities?
 
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