jfuh

Palin never won the debate vic, just because you say so doesn't make it so - want to know what the polling showed after the debate? Palin lost
I let you slide on that one because I did not see Biden KO Palin, which was my condition for a win.

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ADK_Forever

How could anybody claim with a straight face she won? Hell man, she actually came out and said she wasn't going to answer the questions asked of her! All she did was spew her memorized talking points as fast as she could remember them. they came out with no emotion, no articulation and in no discernible order.

And now McCain is reluctant to even support her anymore!

She... is... an... idiot. Dat's a fact, Jack!

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jfuh

Tell that to vicchio, he's been bitching to me about it for ages of how SHE WON SHE WON SHE WON PAY UP PAY UP PAY UP

She's not an idiot though, she's an utter bimbo

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ADK_Forever

Yeah I know. "Stupid as a fence post" comes to mind.

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President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

Heretic

Yup. Most Americans are conspiracy minded idiots.

I think you're grossly overestimating their ability. A few conservative think tanks that are using the same handful of scientists to distort known science just as they had a few decades ago is hardly what I consider "a vast right wing conspiracy". Now if it involved multiple levels of the government, the entire peer review process across multiple competing journals, and every scientific organization with national or international standing like your juvenile conspiracy does, then perhaps...

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Wessexman

That depends according to Kirkpatrick Sale's Human Scale on a small scale, say a few square miles solar works very well. It is actually more efficient, or was back in the 80s, than fossil fuel power generation.

A lot of these renewable technologies could work very well right now on a small community scale. The problem is the will isn't there for various reasons ranging from lack of community spirit to no investment from large corporations because it is a lot harder for them to make a profit this way.

So predictably money is wasted by gov'ts and energy companies to try and make massive large scale renewable power generation systems because this is the only way these people can think.

The green technology is here, we just have to adapt to it instead of trying to get it to adapt to our overly centralised, large scale technofix world. And paradoxically it supports communitarian, decentralised and anti-authoritarian solutions that conservatives should be all over.

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MrVicchio

Wessexman, when the tech becomes both profitable AND economically viable, it will take off, not a moment before then.

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Wessexman

You seem under the false impression that there is much of a free market in these things. There are many social, govermental and big business, which is much the same as the state, factors involved

Did you know in 1980 that direct sudsidies to industry were actually higher than total corporate profits? This is according to a study by Congress itself quouted in Kirkpatrick Sale's Human Scale.

If communities had the spirit and knowledge they could easily set up this sort of system, those sorts of things are lacking sadly in the modern world now.

I have figures on the hidden costs of fossil fuels and Nuclear from Sale's book, they are quite old but I see no reason to presume the general tendency has changed.

Federal Subsidies to the oil industry: $10.3 billion dollars
Federal Subsidies to utility corportations, including uncollected taxes and the 20 percent tax subsidy on new plants:$2.7 billion
Federal Subsidies to coal and Nuclear industries: $3.8 billion
Federal expenditures on its own power projects: $11 billion
Federal agency expenditures for utility regulation excluding pollution $1 billion
Federal expenditures for energy agencies: $11 billion
Total Federal and state gov't expenditure for pollution control(exluding auto.): $4.8
State gov't purchases of utility power: $11.2 billion
Business expenditure on pollution control: $6.5 billion
Business expenditures related(excluding auto.): $3 billion
Consumer expenditure(excluding auto.): $1 billion
General pollution cots: $18 billion.

Total costs: $76.8 billion

No doubt these days renewable energy gets some help itself, however as has long been noted big gov't and big business are addicted to large scale, centralised, technofix solutions which are coslty with renewable energy and usually fail whereas the real opportunity, and much alreadt existing knowledge and technology, is for the small scale, communitarian stuff. Blocks can already largely be powered by small solar generating systems very efficiently but gov'ts and energy corporations waste vast sums on trying to get efficient solar generation for large areas from massive towers of solar conductors.

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The Wessex society.

“I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I despise equality.”
John Randolph of Roanoke.

MrVicchio

Except you, and Jfuh from the thanks, miss two important points:

1. The subsidies were more political then market needed.

2. No one wants to drive an inferior electric car.

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Both of our PC's died. I am using a 2004-5 era Mac. It's SLOW. So if you see a TYPO in my posts, forgive it.
Cause this stupid POS sux.

Wessexman

Who says? The subsidies over the decades have been enormous and certainly fulfilling large economic needs. You can't get out of it that easily.

Well if cities were planned better instead of being planned around the motor car then that may have been different. But that doesn't change the rest of the power debate.

__________________
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“I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I despise equality.”
John Randolph of Roanoke.