UtahBill

I am aware of the reflection issue, but it isn't as severe as many think. The solar angles at the poles are very low, which is the primary reason that the ice can build up in the first place. It wouldn't take much in the way of cloud cover to minimize the solar insolation at the North Pole, and allow the ice to accumulate again.

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Gladiator

What do the Polar Bears have to say about losing the North Pole Ice? Have they been told? What does PETA have to say about no more North Pole Ice for Polar Bears, Seals and Walrus?

The distribution of Ocean life is largely dependent upon temperatures and ocean flows. There will be a shift in marine life for at least the North Pole area.

Scotland is warmed by the Gulf Stream, and theren may be a change in the path of the Gulf Stream.

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Gill

OR, Arctic ice melt could have nothing whatsoever to do with the atmosphere. We already know that NASA is claiming that the ice melt has nothing to do with a warming air temperature. They published a paper stating that the ice is melting due to cyclical winds.

Now, scientists are saying that massive volcanos have erupted under the Arctic ice cap and that is what has caused the unusual ice melt.

Volcanic eruptions reshape Arctic ocean floor: study - Yahoo! News

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jfuh

Couple points that you need to clarify.

1. When did the eruptions happen? According to your article it was 1999, not 2008 so what is the relevance of the melt this year?
2. where in the article of your source do the scientists mention at any point that the volcanoes are responsible for the "unusual melt"? Against not a single point in the article mentions that the volcanic eruption that occured in 1999 is responsible for the ice melt of this year.

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Gladiator

American Thinker, 7-4-08

American Thinker Blog: Arctic ice melt may be due to undersea volcanoes



Reported in Nature, 26, June 08

Access : : Nature

Abstract:

Roughly 60% of the Earth's outer surface is composed of oceanic crust formed by volcanic processes at mid-ocean ridges. Although only a small fraction of this vast volcanic terrain has been visually surveyed or sampled, the available evidence suggests that explosive eruptions are rare on mid-ocean ridges, particularly at depths below the critical point for seawater (3,000 m)1. A pyroclastic deposit has never been observed on the sea floor below 3,000 m, presumably because the volatile content of mid-ocean-ridge basalts is generally too low to produce the gas fractions required for fragmenting a magma at such high hydrostatic pressure. We employed new deep submergence technologies during an International Polar Year expedition to the Gakkel ridge in the Arctic Basin at 85° E, to acquire photographic and video images of 'zero-age' volcanic terrain on this remote, ice-covered ridge. Here we present images revealing that the axial valley at 4,000 m water depth is blanketed with unconsolidated pyroclastic deposits, including bubble wall fragments (limu o Pele)2, covering a large (>10 km2) area. At least 13.5 wt% CO2 is necessary to fragment magma at these depths3, which is about tenfold the highest values previously measured in a mid-ocean-ridge basalt4. These observations raise important questions about the accumulation and discharge of magmatic volatiles at ultraslow spreading rates on the Gakkel ridge5 and demonstrate that large-scale pyroclastic activity is possible along even the deepest portions of the global mid-ocean ridge volcanic system.

Other Arctic Volcano Comentary:

Knight Science Journalism Tracker Blog Archive AFP, Science News, New Scientist, etc: Deep under the Arctic, volcanoes explode




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jfuh

The Nature article says absolutly nothing whatsoever of the volcano that "exploded" back in 1999 has anything to do with the melting in 2008. Neither does the Science journalism tracker. The only one to make such a connection has been Gill and the blog you posted.

Gladiator

People who are certain that Man's production of CO2 is a significant cause of Global warming are advocates of conservation, and generally suggest that Republicans are doing a poor job of managing the environment, and that Democrats would do a better job.

The Antropogenic argument is to point to CO2 increases in the Ocean and the Air, over a couple hundered years, which corresponds with measurable Global Warming, and insist that man's CO2 emissions have caused the Global Warming.

But advocates of conservation of Carbon, have no definitive proof on the patterns of cooling from the Earth's core, from 8500 Degrees F.

Undersea geisers and sub-magma water flows are not well understood.

How much of the increase in CO2 is produced by under-sea events?

A few degrees difference in Sea Water temperature might have a large effect on the retention of Ice at the North Pole.


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Gladiator

North Pole was melted in 2000.

The Top of the World


" August 2000, a Russian icebreaker, the Yamal, took a group of environmental scientists on an excursion into the Arctic Ocean. When they got to the North Pole they were greeted by an expanse of open water, photographs of which became the subject of sensationalist reporting in the media.

Among the scientists on the cruise was Dr. James McCarthy, an oceanographer, director of the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University and a lead author for the IPCC. "It was totally unexpected," he said in a report to the media. Another scientist aboard, Dr. Malcolm C. McKenna, a paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History, remarked "I don't know if anybody in history ever got to 90 degrees north to be greeted by water, not ice."

"The last time scientists can be certain the pole was awash in water was more than 50 million years ago." proclaimed the New York Times in an article entitled `The North Pole is melting' (August 19, 2000). "


Arctic Temperatures influence the world's weather:

Arctic Climate Research: North Pole Environmental Observatory

NY Times found scietists to say volcanos are not melting the North Pole:

Fire Under North Pole Ice - More Views - Dot Earth - Climate Change and Sustainability - New York Times Blog




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Gladiator

"3 October 2006

Arctic Sea Ice Shrinks as Temperatures Rise

Despite cool temperatures in August, summer sea ice falls below normal for fifth year"

http://nsidc.org/news/press/2006_sea...timeseries.png


3 Oct 2006: Arctic Sea Ice Shrinks as Temperatures Rise



Arctic Ice decrease may release methane from the Permafrost, which is a Real Greenhouse Gas.

Permafrost threatened by rapid retreat of Arctic sea ice, NCAR study finds

"The team found that during episodes of rapid sea-ice loss, the rate of Arctic land warming is 3.5 times greater than the average 21st century warming rates predicted in global climate models. While this warming is largest over the ocean, the simulations suggest that it can penetrate as far as 900 miles inland. The simulations also indicate that the warming acceleration during such events is especially pronounced in autumn. The decade during which a rapid sea-ice loss event occurs could see autumn temperatures warm by as much as 9 degrees F (5 degrees C) along the Arctic coasts of Russia, Alaska, and Canada.

Lawrence and his colleagues then used the model to study the influence of accelerated warming on permafrost and found that in areas where permafrost is already at risk, such as central Alaska, a period of abrupt sea-ice loss could lead to rapid soil thaw. This situation, when summer thaw extends more deeply than the next winter's freeze, can lead to a talik, which is a layer of permanently unfrozen soil sandwiched between the seasonally frozen layer above and the perennially frozen layer below. A talik allows heat to build more quickly in the soil, hastening the long-term thaw of permafrost."








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Gladiator

More scienteis who say that heat form under-sea volcanos cannot warm the Surface waters or Arctic Ice.

Whats Up With Volcanoes Under Arctic Sea Ice - Dot Earth - Climate Change and Sustainability - New York Times Blog

They don't seem to have numbers, but seem set in their belief's in the Ocean Layers as being impenetrable.

I can see layers, but I don't buy impenetrability. More volcanos means warmer water, and less volcanos men cooler ocean water and streams.


This 2007 article states surface water temperatures in the Arctic are increasing, because of warmer atmospheric conditons, and more sea water without ice to reflect the Sun's heat. Both Winter Ice and Summer Ice levels are decreasing.

Rising Surface Temperatures Drive Back Winter Ice In Barents Sea, Researchers Find

The winter ice is expected to return in the 2008-2009 winter, but at a reduced level.


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