Scucca

Any thoughts on the validity of the green economics approach. Here's an example of their thinking (from What is Green Economics?):

Tinkering with money, interest rates, or even state regulation is insufficient in creating sensible economies. One can scarcely imagine a more inefficient, irrational and wasteful way to organize any sector of the economy than what we actually have right now. Both the form and the content of sustainable agriculture, of green manufacturing, of soft energy, etc. are diametrically opposed to their current industrial counterparts, which are intrinsically wasteful. There is no justifiable rationale to be producing vast quantities of toxic materials; or generating more deskilled than skilled labour; or displacing labour rather than resources from production; or extending giant wasteful loops of production & consumption through globalization. These are economic inefficiencies, economic irrationalities that can only be righted by starting from scratch—to look at the most elegant and efficient ways of doing everything. As green economist Paul Hawken writes, our social and environmental crises are not problems of management, but of design. We need a system overhaul.

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Sean

Honestly, I have to say that many people, even greens within themselves, have different views. Some greens think that capitalism is okay, while others think we need to overhaul to a social or even communist economy. Now, although I am a green myself, I think that atleast a semi-free market can be maintained. Big business tycoons and manufacturing industries don't recognize the importance of preserving growth of trees and so on, in which case, the government usually puts regulations into place... that is, if the government supports green ideology, environmentally wise. Now, some greens take it way too far and think, Capitalism promotes dirty industry, and there can be none of that... at all. That is how the socialist/coomunist idea arises. Promote agriculture and so on. Although agriculture is a 'clean and green' industry, most greens believe that manufacturing is okay, as along as there are certain 'rules' to abide by that keep our environment healthy, such as limiting wastely practices. (I know... rules and regulations... it all sounds a bit liberal, eh.)

Scucca

To what extent is big business the problem? For example, I've met Greens that take a hybrid of orthodox and Marxist theory to construct arguments for the forced elimination of all sizable corporations. They argue that its more than just about regulation, it is also an appreciation of the destructiveness of big business for sustainable development. Thus, we first secure conservatism (with environmental damage maximised) by corporations defending their profits to the detriment of the general good. We then can refer to concepts such as alienation where big business economics becomes about transforming all needs into the need for commodities.

Sean

Well, you make a point. The big businesses do have to be there at some point to keep an economy stabilized, but one major problem is the fact that many people oppose the green ideals, mostly dedicated conservatives, so that opposition keeps the businnesses there and the businnesses continue to damage the environment, as is somewhat the case in the U.S.A. Now in a society where you have atleast a semi-strong committee that promotes green ideals, the big businness can eventually transform all needs into the need for commodities, which would mean that the government would own the businnesses and would be able to control pollution, which would be marxist theory. That is why so many greens are leaning towards the left. They can't imagine a capitalistic society where big businnesses don't pollute. Now, I think there are ways that orthodox, capitalistic society can be run without the pollution of big businnesses. Some those ways are yet to be unearthed and brainstormed though.

Please tell me if I misunderstood what you were saying... thanks.

Scucca

It is this which I struggle with. I come from a background where pollution is just seen as an external cost ignored by the producer. Thus, simple regulation can be applied where that externality is internalised (e.g. tax to reduce production and therefore pollution costs). It is not necessary to see big business as a problem. Indeed, one could argue that- per unit produced- they will be less of a problem as they can benefit more from a "green dividend" (i.e. use green investments to impress the consumer and therefore increase demand).

The Green approach is quite different. It becomes difficult to refer to the use of simple regulation. It is no longer good enough to refer to externalities. Instead, the analysis becomes a dynamic analysis into how unsustainable development dominates capitalism. Regulating big business surely then has to be replaced with eliminating big business?

Sean

...and that is the problem. Regulating doesn't do much anymore. Businesses find a way around the regulations, so many greens resort to the idea of eliminating 'the big businness industry' as a whole. I think society as a whole needs to cooperate to create atleast a semi-free market society where big businnesses actually care. As you were saying about creating products that our helathy for the environment, it attracts customers. They like to bye stuff that will help. Now, it is only a matter of finding less wasteful forms of manufacturing...

Scucca

Isn't the problem that there is a distinction between "green policies" (i.e. reducing pollution per good produced) and sustainable development? Big business, where consumer fetishism is encouraged, becomes mutually exclusive with the latter.

chasalex

I was interested in the discussion above! 20 years ago I had a book published on different economic concepts to point the way to a sustainable world economy. Someone who liked the book recently contacted me to suggest that I update and re-publish it as a blog. She set up the blog and is posting the book in sections as I write and send it to her. Here is the link:

Foreword | Economics for a Round Earth

From Charles Pierce